Law on "defectively deactivated" firearms.

[peregrinvs]

Although it’s hardly any secret that the law is being widely and fairly openly ignored and I have yet to hear of any prosecutions. I assume this is primarily because it is mostly pointless, difficult to enforce and the police have no shortage of better things to do.

There is the other possibility that the Home Office would rather not it was tested in court because as the law currently stands you could theoretically spend 6 months in prison for selling a highly effectively deactivated gun because it had been highly effectively deactivated in the wrong highly effective way. An obvious absurdity and injustice.

[MrEd]

2 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

Although it’s hardly any secret that the law is being widely and fairly openly ignored and I have yet to hear of any prosecutions. I assume this is primarily because it is mostly pointless, difficult to enforce and the police have no shortage of better things to do.

There is the other possibility that the Home Office would rather not it was tested in court because as the law currently stands you could theoretically spend 6 months in prison for selling a highly effectively deactivated gun because it had been highly effectively deactivated in the wrong highly effective way. An obvious absurdity and injustice.

Very true, there is a point that a test case would fail (from the HO point of view) 

[Stevie]

Another thing to consider is that the law on defectively deactivated weapons has yet to be put on the statute books.

[peregrinvs]

18 minutes ago, MrEd said:

Very true, there is a point that a test case would fail (from the HO point of view) 

Indeed. If I was being prosecuted for selling a so-called ‘defectively deactivated’ firearm, I would elect for a jury trial and hope they would exercise their common sense and acquit.

[Freeloader]

Quote

Indeed. If I was being prosecuted for selling a so-called ‘defectively deactivated’ firearm, I would elect for a jury trial and hope they would exercise their common sense and acquit.

Probably your best hope, but, from experience, relying on the 'common sense' of a jury is a risky strategy. It'll only take a couple of Telegraph/Mail readers who think a gun can be reactivated by simply drilling out the barrel [no matter what you tell them].

The reason for coming here was to try and get some clarity on the current position, as I came across sales of pre-2018 deacs the other day. I guess the sort of people who report such things don't go into those shops and council and police services have been cut so they can't send people out to check. Sounds like a law that's as useful as the VCR Act [would love to know how many prosecutions there've been for painting a bright blue gun black]. As usual, the normally law-abiding will comply and the others won't.

Quote

It'll only take a couple of Telegraph/Mail readers

Or a Guardian reader who thinks anyone with an interest like this should be in prison. ...........Added in the interest of impartiality!

[peregrinvs]

It contains no more logic than a law making it illegal to sell a blunt knife if the blade hasn’t been blunted in a certain state defined way. It also seems to expect people to pay to have their valuable collectibles further damaged and devalued so they can sell them.

Edited 7 June , 2023 by peregrinvs

[Chasemuseum]

On 03/06/2023 at 20:38, Freeloader said:

Or a Guardian reader who thinks anyone with an interest like this should be in prison. ...........Added in the interest of impartiality!

Frankly, the Guardian would ban this web site if they could. Full of evil war mongers...

[Chasemuseum]

On 03/06/2023 at 22:23, peregrinvs said:

illegal to sell a blunt knife if the blade hasn’t been blunted in a certain state defined way

Unsure of the current status, but for many years it was illegal to own a samurai sword in Western Australia unless the cutting edge was blunted to an approved standard. I was horrified when some collectors showed me what they had had to do to be allowed to keep their swords. (They had ground back the cutting edge so that there was a 1mm wide flat surface) 

[trajan]

On 07/06/2023 at 05:07, Chasemuseum said:

Frankly, the Guardian would ban this web site if they could. Full of evil war mongers...

Well, as perhaps the only Guardian reader on this thread I cannot agree with you! In fact, the Guardian gave a very positive review of the Royal Armouries Museum in 2019... https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2019/apr/12/royal-armouries-museum-leeds-review!

On 07/06/2023 at 05:11, Chasemuseum said:

Unsure of the current status, but for many years it was illegal to own a samurai sword in Western Australia unless the cutting edge was blunted to an approved standard. I was horrified when some collectors showed me what they had had to do to be allowed to keep their swords. (They had ground back the cutting edge so that there was a 1mm wide flat surface) 

Ouch and damn interfering busybodies!

[tootrock]

There is at least one other Guardian reader on this thread/site.

Martin

[trajan]

On 27/06/2023 at 17:55, tootrock said:

There is at least one other Guardian reader on this thread/site.

Martin

 We are often unfairly discriminated against...

[GWF1967]

2 hours ago, trajan said:

 We are often unfairly discriminated against...

Nowt wrong with the Grauniad!

[MikB]

On 27/06/2023 at 11:58, trajan said:

Well, as perhaps the only Guardian reader on this thread I cannot agree with you! In fact, the Guardian gave a very positive review of the Royal Armouries Museum in 2019... https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2019/apr/12/royal-armouries-museum-leeds-review!

Ouch and damn interfering busybodies!

Well, you're not the only one, and I don't agree either. 

[Gunner Bailey]

On 03/06/2023 at 07:38, peregrinvs said:

Although it’s hardly any secret that the law is being widely and fairly openly ignored and I have yet to hear of any prosecutions. I assume this is primarily because it is mostly pointless, difficult to enforce and the police have no shortage of better things to do.

There is the other possibility that the Home Office would rather not it was tested in court because as the law currently stands you could theoretically spend 6 months in prison for selling a highly effectively deactivated gun because it had been highly effectively deactivated in the wrong highly effective way. An obvious absurdity and injustice.

Excellent post. 

The law is clearly being flouted but this law is an ass.  In any test case you would only have to put a qualified gunsmith into the witness box and ask them what new parts were needed to 'reactivate' an 'old spec' pre EU deact rifle. The response would probably be 'barrel, receiver, bolt, trigger mechanism' -  in fact all the parts needed to make a new working gun. Why on earth would any criminal bother when they can import/smuggle modern live guns from Eastern Europe fairly easily? A gunsmith of my acquaintance said that under the old UK spec, pretty well only the woodwork was reusable in a working gun. 

The law was necessary in parts of Europe where the deact specs varied greatly, however the UK spec at the time was more than adequate.

Plus of course when was the last time anyone used a deact Vickers MG , WW1 SMLE or a Bren gun in a bank robbery? 

(Ex Guardian reader!)

[peregrinvs]

You can just imagine the cross-examination:

Barrister: You are accused of selling a defectively deactivated firearm.

Defendant: No I haven’t. The firearm had been very effectively deactivated.

Barrister: According to the legal definition, the firearm had been defectively deactivated.

Defendant: That’s nice. I’m talking about the physical reality.

etc.

A cruel irony is that the Charlie Hebdo attack in France - which started the EU-spec ball rolling - didn’t even involve deactivated firearms as defined in UK law. They were live guns converted to blank fire that had been converted back to live fire. A live AK47 converted to blank fire is a Section 5 firearm in the UK.

[593jones]

3 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

A cruel irony is that the Charlie Hebdo attack in France - which started the EU-spec ball rolling - didn’t even involve deactivated firearms as defined in UK law. They were live guns converted to blank fire that had been converted back to live fire. A live AK47 converted to blank fire is a Section 5 firearm in the UK.

Someone with a cynical nature might well suspect that the fact that the guns used were not, in fact, deactivated was irrelevant, it merely provided an excuse for further restrictions.

[Chasemuseum]

15 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

law is an as

This is part of the problem. From the other side of the planet, here in NSW a collector with a prohibited weapons permit (allowing him to collect hand grenades & artillery projectiles that were certified free from explosives FFE) was prosecuted because a shell was not FFE. There was faint explosive residue inside a projectile. The crown technical witness was asked by the judge,

HH - how much explosive was actually present inside the shell ?

Expert - about as much chemical as on the head of a match Your Honour.

HH - what would be the explosive effect of the detonation of that material ?

Expert - About the same as lighting the match.

 

HH finished the case fairly rapidly after that.  The collector had had all of his licenses suspended for over 18 months while the matter was awaiting trial and had been paying storage charges at a licensed storage facility of about $300/day for his collection ($1/item/day the usual rate here).  The police may have been made to look fairly foolish but the collector was absolutely hammered economically. 

 

The law may be an ass, it may be thrown out in court but you can still be financially ruined. 

 

This is why you need to obey even stupid laws and campaign to have them changed. 

[Chasemuseum]

On 27/06/2023 at 20:58, trajan said:

Well, as perhaps the only Guardian reader on this thread I cannot agree with you! In fact, the Guardian gave a very positive review of the Royal Armouries Museum in 2019.

Yes that was a very positive post on the Royal Armouries at Leeds. Frankly, I have always considered it an excellent museum. Also like the "Kids Museum" up in that area as well, my children loved that when they were little.

 

The Guardian Australia, which is an off-shoot of the UK Guardian is a radical left wing newspaper/website. Virtually everything I have read of theirs pertaining to Defence has been highly critical of our nation allocating any resources to Defence or having military relationships with such evil countries as USA or UK. On general matters, they seem to always support the left wing of our Labor Party (ours has a different spelling to yours) or our Greens Party which is our old Communist Party rebadged.

[Gunner Bailey]

Surely the whole point of any law concerning deactivated weapons is that the  law protects the public.

In the case of the EU law and the UK it is totally irrelevant and has not improved any protection of the public over and above the previous UK law. It has only harmed the previous trade in deactivated weapons and now allows for price exploitation on 'old spec' guns. Prices for 'old spec' deacts have tripled since the EU law came in in some cases.

A total waste of time.