Law on "defectively deactivated" firearms.

[yperman]

I am a novice with deacs and live in England  - what does the legal term "defectively deactivated" and EWD mean please? I bought a small collection of deacs  10 odd years ago with deac certs from dealers. Some of them were deactivated in the 1990s and are very early deactivations. I have no intention of selling them or gifting them to anyone - does the law now mean  I have to do anything with them?  I find this really confusing!

 

Many thanks 

 

Yperman

[peregrinvs]

The short answer is that you don’t have to do anything with them if you don’t intend to transfer them.

[vectisitch]

I have a deactivated No4 Lee enfield that came from the hill 62 museum when it closed. I've had it since the late 80's if i remember rightly. The firing pin has been removed and welded up. The Barrel has a rod welded into it and has been cut in half and rewelded together. No way is that thing firing anything but it would probably be deemed illegal. But i'm not selling it or giving it up.

Edited 25 July , 2022 by vectisitch

[yperman]

1 hour ago, peregrinvs said:

The short answer is that you don’t have to do anything with them if you don’t intend to transfer them.

Thank you very much! I struggle with deacs and the law.

[yperman]

1 hour ago, vectisitch said:

I have a deactivated No4 Lee enfield that came from the hill 62 museum when it closed. I've had it since the late 80's if i remember rightly. The firing pin has been removed and welded up. The Barrel has a rod welded into it and has been cut in half and rewelded together. No way is that thing firing anything but it would probably be deemed illegal. But i'm not selling it or giving it up.

Sounds a nice piece.  Shame the museum went. Is the Sanctuary wood museum and bar still open?

[593jones]

4 hours ago, vectisitch said:

I have a deactivated No4 Lee enfield that came from the hill 62 museum when it closed. I've had it since the late 80's if i remember rightly. The firing pin has been removed and welded up. The Barrel has a rod welded into it and has been cut in half and rewelded together. No way is that thing firing anything but it would probably be deemed illegal. But i'm not selling it or giving it up.

If it can still be dry fired, then it is 'defectively deactivated', I believe the rules state that there should be no physical connection between the trigger and the bolt.  Having said that, I have seen deacts advertised as dry firing, where the advertisers stand with; the law is problematical.  My Lee-Enfields are all defectively deactivated, but since I don't have any intention of disposing of them it doesn't matter.  Of course, when I die it might be a problem for my executor!

[AOK4]

5 hours ago, vectisitch said:

I have a deactivated No4 Lee enfield that came from the hill 62 museum when it closed. I've had it since the late 80's if i remember rightly. The firing pin has been removed and welded up. The Barrel has a rod welded into it and has been cut in half and rewelded together. No way is that thing firing anything but it would probably be deemed illegal. But i'm not selling it or giving it up.

Do you mean the Hill 60 museum? Wasn't that around the year 2000?

[peregrinvs]

5 hours ago, vectisitch said:

I have a deactivated No4 Lee enfield that came from the hill 62 museum when it closed. I've had it since the late 80's if i remember rightly. The firing pin has been removed and welded up. The Barrel has a rod welded into it and has been cut in half and rewelded together. No way is that thing firing anything but it would probably be deemed illegal. But i'm not selling it or giving it up.

With that level of deactivation work I doubt it would be literally illegal. More a case of De Facto rather than De Jure deactivated - rather like very corroded / damaged relic guns. It would of course be classed as ‘defectively deactivated’ as far as the 2018 law is concerned, but if you don’t intend to transfer it then that isn’t an issue.

[peregrinvs]

54 minutes ago, 593jones said:

If it can still be dry fired, then it is 'defectively deactivated', I believe the rules state that there should be no physical connection between the trigger and the bolt.  Having said that, I have seen deacts advertised as dry firing, where the advertisers stand with; the law is problematical.  My Lee-Enfields are all defectively deactivated, but since I don't have any intention of disposing of them it doesn't matter.  Of course, when I die it might be a problem for my executor!

I believe some 2016-2018 EU spec deacts such as bolt action rifles could still be dry fired and I believe they are still legal to transfer. However it’s barely any secret that the prohibition on transferring so-called ‘defectively deactivated’ guns is being widely ignored and the powers that be don’t seem to be making much effort to enforce it. As the law essentially isn’t evidence based and in the vast majority of cases physically erroneous, perhaps they’d rather it wasn’t tested in court?

[vectisitch]

14 hours ago, AOK4 said:

Do you mean the Hill 60 museum? Wasn't that around the year 2000?

Not sure now. I thought it was hill 62. I do know it was late 80's that i got it.

Yes it can be dry fired and the bolt moves as it should. The magazine can be removed too. However it has fired it's last round for sure. The law is an ass as they say

Edited 26 July , 2022 by vectisitch

[healdav]

42 minutes ago, vectisitch said:

Not sure now. I thought it was hill 62. I do know it was late 80's that i got it.

Yes it can be dry fired and the bolt moves as it should. The magazine can be removed too. However it has fired it's last round for sure. The law is an ass as they say

You think you've got problems. The other day I saw a bloke who makes salt from seawater (in Britain) saying that he has to put "Use By................." on every box.

Edited 26 July , 2022 by healdav

[chaz]

the law on deacts has changed recently, a google search will try to explain but its not very clear, some deacts went to the police as surrendered guns, en route to the crusher, many were collectables and ok to previous laws but probably not valuable enough to warrant more expense to bring up to date. Some put aside and sent to knowledgeable people to look after.

https://www.theregister.com/2019/11/08/home_office_deactivated_weapons_email_address/#:~:text=Passed quietly into law last,happens to be election day.

the only real problem comes , when you want to sell. how this is affected when you expire and is willed to your nearest kin , do they need to get it re assesed and updated .

[Joolz]

From what I understand, pre-2016 deactivates ('defectively deactivated' guns) can't be transferred. So if the original owner dies, they presumably have to be either surrendered, or handed to a S5 RFD for re-deactivation. They certainly can't be willed to your next of kin as they are. And of course, once they've been re-deactivated to the 2018 standard, they will have to be registered with the Home Office when they come back to their new owner.

There's a reason I don't touch deacts, and go for the live gun every time. All that expense and fuss, and all you end up with is a welded, chopped up lump of metal that doesn't do anything, and costs vastly more than the real thing.

[MrEd]

1 minute ago, Joolz said:

From what I understand, pre-2016 deactivates ('defectively deactivated' guns) can't be transferred. So if the original owner dies, they presumably have to be either surrendered, or handed to a S5 RFD for re-deactivation. They certainly can't be willed to your next of kin as they are. And of course, once they've been re-deactivated to the 2018 standard, they will have to be registered with the Home Office when they come back to their new owner.

There's a reason I don't touch deacts, and go for the live gun every time. All that expense and fuss, and all you end up with is a welded, chopped up lump of metal that doesn't do anything, and costs vastly more than the real thing.

In a lot of cases it is definitely cheaper to get a live gun via an RFD and get them to get it deactivated than it is to get a deac from a militaria dealer.
 

I have a couple of deac rifles that I use in a museum display for ‘show and tell’ type handling and the only thing they don’t do is shoot a round, chamber a cartridge or eject a cartridge. They cock, dry fire, field strip, and with tools completely strip. They are EU2018 spec.

I was going to pick up something else a couple months back that was the most current EU spec - trigger did nothing apart from move under spring pressure, you couldn’t remove the bolt, couldn’t cock it or dry fire or field strip. What’s the point of owning that??

it does also depend on who does the deac work, I have seen some really neat sympathetic deac work and some that’s quite ‘rush jobbed’ with no apparent regard to finesse from a historical point of view 

[peregrinvs]

8 hours ago, Joolz said:

From what I understand, pre-2016 deactivates ('defectively deactivated' guns) can't be transferred. So if the original owner dies, they presumably have to be either surrendered, or handed to a S5 RFD for re-deactivation. They certainly can't be willed to your next of kin as they are. And of course, once they've been re-deactivated to the 2018 standard, they will have to be registered with the Home Office when they come back to their new owner.

My understanding is that inheritance is a grey area. The wording of the law is that the owner commits an offence when the gun is transferred, not the receiver and as the owner is dead they can’t be prosecuted. I’ve read elsewhere that the Home Office stance is that the executor of the estate is responsible for having them re-deactivated if they are passed on to an inheritor. But that’s merely their opinion and I’m not aware of it being tested in court. I have personal experience of them giving deliberately obfuscatory advice when they don’t like the idea of something that isn’t explicitly illegal.

[yperman]

3 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

My understanding is that inheritance is a grey area. The wording of the law is that the owner commits an offence when the gun is transferred, 

So the bottom line is that I - a deac novice who ten years ago in about 2012  bought from a dealer (a retired police officer) a small collection of  GW era pre 2016  deacs  can legally keep them in my home but I can't lawfully sell or give them away?

Out of interest what is the case with older weapons e.g. flint lock black powder pistols and muskets? Do you need a firearms licence or to get them deactivated?

Thanks for your help gentlemen ! Yperman

12 hours ago, MrEd said:

In a lot of cases it is definitely cheaper to get a live gun via an RFD and get them to get it deactivated than it is to get a deac from a militaria dealer.

 

[MrEd]

3 minutes ago, yperman said:

So the bottom line is that I - a deac novice who ten years ago in about 2012  bought from a dealer (a retired police officer) a small collection of  GW era pre 2016  deacs  can legally keep them in my home but I can't lawfully sell or give them away?

Out of interest what is the case with older weapons e.g. flint lock black powder pistols and muskets? Do you need a firearms licence or to get them deactivated?

Thanks for your help gentlemen ! Yperman

 

Obsolete calibre weapons can be owned ‘live’ they don’t need deactivating.

 

yes correct re: your pre-EU deacs, you can keep and display at home as is but if you want to sell them or give them away then apparently they need to be re-deactivated to do so, but I *think* you can sell them to an RFD as is as they can do the deac work if necessary - but check with your nearest one! 

[593jones]

1 hour ago, yperman said:

Out of interest what is the case with older weapons e.g. flint lock black powder pistols and muskets? Do you need a firearms licence or to get them deactivated?

Anything up to and including the Martini Henry is either antique or obsolete calibre, so no licence or deactivation necessary.  However, if you wanted to shoot them, then they become firearms and subject to firearms licencing requirements.  (Plus an explosives licence for the black powder.)

[yperman]

Thank you  both for the inforation. Yperman

[peregrinvs]

6 hours ago, MrEd said:

yes correct re: your pre-EU deacs, you can keep and display at home as is but if you want to sell them or give them away then apparently they need to be re-deactivated to do so, but I *think* you can sell them to an RFD as is as they can do the deac work if necessary - but check with your nearest one! 

There are two exceptions in the law: selling them outside of the UK or selling them to the holder of a museum firearms license. Selling them to an RFD isn’t an exception, but if this was done on the proviso that they were going to be re-deactivated to the current spec, then that would be arguably within the spirit of the law - if not the exact letter. A more straightforward solution would be the official sale and transfer of ownership taking place post-deactivation.

[MrEd]

3 minutes ago, peregrinvs said:

There are two exceptions in the law: selling them outside of the UK or selling them to the holder of a museum firearms license. Selling them to an RFD isn’t an exception, but if this was done on the proviso that they were going to be re-deactivated to the current spec, then that would be arguably within the spirit of the law - if not the exact letter. A more straightforward solution would be the official sale and transfer of ownership taking place post-deactivation.

Yes true. I am only repeating here what an RFD said to me when I was looking to move on a pre-eu deac rifle i have, hene my suggestion to speak to a local RFD.

i think the law can be interpreted in numerous ways, until it gets tested in court!

[Joolz]

As far as I am aware, you can take them in to an RFD to get them re-deactivated on your behalf (of course, they still remain your property). But actually selling them (ie. transferring ownership) isn't possible until after they have been re-deactivated. Even for an RFD with Section 5 authority.

As for flintlocks, percussion guns etc., so long as they were made before 1939 they are classed as antiques and don't need a licence to own/buy.

When it comes to cartridge guns, that depends on the calibre, not the age, of the gun (so long as it is pre-1939), and whether it is on the list of obsolete calibres.

[MrEd]

Possibly I misunderstood the advice I was given then by the RFD

[Stevie]

Now this is where the deactivation laws get a bit tricky... Pre - 2018 EU spec guns cannot be legally sold because they are also defectively deactivated, because they do not meet the later 2018 specs. UK spec deactivated guns cannot be sold to EU - EEA member states, they can only be sold to countries outside the EU - EEA.

Great Britain ceased to be an EU - EEA member in 2020. So technically speaking, UK residents should be able to legally purchase old spec deactivated guns. Some dealers are openly selling and advertising them too - with absolutely no problem from the authorities. Sooner or later someone might have the guts to test this in court. Occasionally at arms fairs, I have encountered problems with dealers when I have tried to sell them 2018 EU spec guns. Unless I agreed NOT to fill in the 'transfer of ownership' forms for the Home Office, they would not purchase from me.

[Freeloader]

Quote

Now this is where the deactivation laws get a bit tricky... Pre - 2018 EU spec guns cannot be legally sold because they are also defectively deactivated, because they do not meet the later 2018 specs. UK spec deactivated guns cannot be sold to EU - EEA member states, they can only be sold to countries outside the EU - EEA.

Great Britain ceased to be an EU - EEA member in 2020. So technically speaking, UK residents should be able to legally purchase old spec deactivated guns.

The illegal bit is the selling or transferring. The government amended s.8a Firearms Act 1988 with The Law Enforcement and Security (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 which changed "EU" to "United Kingdom", closing a potential 'loophole'.