Introduction & Medal Index card query

[clk]

5 hours ago, RussT said:

Whilst this is generally true it is by no mean universal - unfortunately this is so oft repeated that it seems now to have become an accepted statement of fact. I've come across countless examples where this is not the case. It seems it was simply down to the Medal Roll compilers of a given unit as to whether they included a man's pre 1917 TF number on the Roll even if a man had served overseas before re-numbering. Most units did (I think correctly) but evidently a few didn't.

That's a good point that Russ makes. Extending it a bit to the Medal Index Card that you posted for Hugh, the fact that it only shows a 4 digit pre 1917 number, doesn't imply that he didn't serve overseas under a six digit number. For whatever reason, the RAMC (TF) cards don't tend to show the later renumber, which is a real pain when trying to determine which specific unit a man have served with. The card shows that he wasn't sent to the 'Z' Reserve until June 1919, 

Findmypast appear to have some kind of hospital admission/discharge ledger record for Hugh (link), which with a bit of luck might show his unit in 1916.

Edit:
Reading back, I see that Hugh was renumbered to 303241, which would seem to put him with the 2nd Highland Division Field Ambulance at the time of the renumber.

Regards
Chris

Edited 10 July , 2022 by clk

[charlie962]

6 minutes ago, clk said:

might show his unit in 1916.

1/2nd Highland Field Ambulance, which makes sense for an Aberdonian

[charlie962]

And that's the same unit as his MM, service number 303141

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, Persimmon said:

Its not on his Medal roll card index or indeed with the MM and the War and the Victory medals I now have. 

As mentioned earlier, the number wasn't essential for medal purposes, so it was often just left off - it would make the administrative paperwork less onerous.

1 hour ago, Persimmon said:

Would that imply he wasn’t untitled to that award as maybe he was based in the UK until 1917 ?

That may or may not be the case, we can't say, but the lack of a 1914/15 star indicates any overseas service would be after 31 Dec 1915.

Craig

[Persimmon]

19 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

As mentioned earlier, the number wasn't essential for medal purposes, so it was often just left off - it would make the administrative paperwork less onerous.

That may or may not be the case, we can't say, but the lack of a 1914/15 star indicates any overseas service would be after 31 Dec 1915.

Craig

The lack of a 1914/15 Star does seem to offer an explanation that my grandfather did not go overseas until 1916 even though the evidence suggests he joined up in November 1914. 

I did find a number of local Aberdeen newspaper articles on the family of Daly brothers. 

One article from April 1915 details a letter from the eldest brother Charles Daly to his father ( my great Grandfather Charles Daly senior ) about a recent Black Watch charge he was involved in. 

The interesting point it is mentioned that the father Charles Daly has “three other sons at the front “.

These son’s are Hugh Daly - awarded the 1914/15 Star and William Hastie Daly who was also awarded the 1914/15 Star and my grandfather Denis Daly who does not have on his medal roll card a 1914/15 Star. 

I would assume that the father would know where his sons were and if indeed they were fighting overseas. Naturally it would be hard to know where they were specifically but certainly if Denis was still at home or holed up as a soldier somewhere in Scotland or England he would have known this ( by letter/visitation etc ).

Sadly there is another newspaper listing two months later in the same Aberdeen newspaper in June 1915 detailing that Charles Daly senior had received intimation that his son Charles Daly had been killed on the 9th May. A short month after the other letter.

Alan 

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, Persimmon said:

I would assume that the father would know where his sons were and if indeed they were fighting overseas. Naturally it would be hard to know where they were specifically but certainly if Denis was still at home or holed up as a soldier somewhere in Scotland or England he would have known this

An assumptions there based on journalistic licence.

Consider the antecedents of 109 Siege Battery and the North Scottish RGA (TF), the latter was formed for Home service.  The Aberdeen contingent, numbered No 1 Company  was based at Fonthill Road Drill Hall from 1912.  In 1914 the artillery arm of the TF was probably the least effective of the TF units as their equipment was usually antiquated and the opportunities to practice limited. 

The Aberdeen Company was charged with Coastal Defence and specifically their own port city, the battery's war station in 1914 was Torry Battery (records indicate some men moved to the Forth Defences in 1917 and others into the Regular RGA).

The Coastal Defence batteries never deployed overseas but remained on Home Service for the duration.  Individual soldiers were used as reinforcements and posted to other units.  It appears they retained their North Scottish identity as they were posted elsewhere.

Men from the North Scottish (TF) formed the nucleus of 109 Siege Battery which it has been confirmed is where he was serving when awarded the MM. 

It appears this unit was further trained on the ranges at Lydd.  Home defence units were not required to keep a war diary so it's difficult, other than examining service records, to know when these men were released from their coastal defence duties to 109 Siege Battery. We do know from the 109 War Diary the Battery was ordered to mobilise on the 22nd May 1916 and after equipping for war arrived in France at Le Havre on the 8th June 1916 after embarking Southampton the previous day (as noted in a previous post).

It has also been  identified that it is likely his service dated from November 1914. I have only found the record of one soldier from North Scottish RGA who went overseas with 109 Siege Battery unfortunately his surviving record merely confirms the embarkation date. (365826 Macaulay) and not the transfer date.

If he first went overseas with 109 Siege Battery, as seems likely then no Star.

 

[Persimmon]

1 minute ago, kenf48 said:

An assumptions there based on journalistic licence.

Consider the antecedents of 109 Siege Battery and the North Scottish RGA (TF), the latter was formed for Home service.  The Aberdeen contingent, numbered No 1 Company  was based at Fonthill Road Drill Hall from 1912.  In 1914 the artillery arm of the TF was probably the least effective of the TF units as their equipment was usually antiquated and the opportunities to practice limited. 

The Aberdeen Company was charged with Coastal Defence and specifically their own port city, the battery's war station in 1914 was Torry Battery (records indicate some men moved to the Forth Defences in 1917 and others into the Regular RGA).

The Coastal Defence batteries never deployed overseas but remained on Home Service for the duration.  Individual soldiers were used as reinforcements and posted to other units.  It appears they retained their North Scottish identity as they were posted elsewhere.

Men from the North Scottish (TF) formed the nucleus of 109 Siege Battery which it has been confirmed is where he was serving when awarded the MM. 

It appears this unit was further trained on the ranges at Lydd.  Home defence units were not required to keep a war diary so it's difficult, other than examining service records, to know when these men were released from their coastal defence duties to 109 Siege Battery. We do know from the 109 War Diary the Battery was ordered to mobilise on the 22nd May 1916 and after equipping for war arrived in France at Le Havre on the 8th June 1916 after embarking Southampton the previous day.

Russ has identified it is likely his service dated from November 1914. I have only found the record of one soldier from North Scottish RGA who went overseas with 109 Siege Battery unfortunately his surviving record merely confirms the embarkation date. (365826 Macaulay).

If he first went overseas with 109 Siege Battery then no Star

 

Thanks Ken for making that so clear. That all makes sense and as you say some journalistic adjustment to a story. 

Many thanks for your advise. 

Alan

[RussT]

8 hours ago, Persimmon said:

my grandfather Denis Daly who does not have on his medal roll card a 1914/15 Star. 

Just to say that if he had been awarded a 1914/1915 Star it would have been shown on a separate MIC, not the one for his BWM/VM and it would have been with his initial 3 digit number only.

Because he neither has a separate MIC nor does he appear on the 1914/1915 RGA TF medal roll - these are the reasons we know that he did not earn one.

Regards

Russ

 

[Persimmon]

2 minutes ago, RussT said:

Just to say that if he had been awarded a 1914/1915 Star it would have been shown on a separate MIC, not the one for his BWM/VM and it would have been with his initial 3 digit number only.

Because he neither has a separate MIC nor does he appear on the 1914/1915 RGA TF medal roll - these are the reasons we know that he did not earn one.

Regards

Russ

 

Thanks Russ for your guidance. I am happy to put that one to bed.  

As this is all new to me, I am so very grateful to have found this forum and especially to all the members who have replied to my original post and who have offered all their expertise to this newbie. 

Thank you gents. 

Alan

[clk]

Hi,

1 hour ago, RussT said:

if he had been awarded a 1914/1915 Star it would have been shown on a separate MIC,

I may be wrong, but I don't think that statement is quite right. Whilst a Star award would have appeared on a separate medal roll to the BWM/VM, there are many, many examples where they are all referenced on the same medal index card. For example:

Images sourced from Ancestry

I would agree though that the evidence (or lack of it) points towards no Star medal entitlement for your man.

Regards
Chris

 

[RussT]

I meant to say for the RGA TF, which I did in the 2nd paragraph. I should have said it also in the 1st paragraph. Given he was with the RGA TF, it sort of came out as it did.

[collectorsguide]

Both Powell and King are entitled to the 1914/15 star. The original MIC for the 1915 star was completed in RED INK. The entries for the BWM/VM were entered later in BLUE INK. See The Companion for full explanation best w, Headmaster  

[Ivor Anderson]

On 09/07/2022 at 21:04, Persimmon said:

Peter Warrington book - The complete Military Medal Roll 1914-19 it lists my grandfather in his listing not as RGA 109 Siege Battery but as RGA Lancashire & Cheshire Bde.  

Denis Daly's MM Index Card - The National Archives' reference WO 372/23/96935 - records him as specifically being with the 109th SB RGA when he earned it:

Howard & Chris link this 13 March 1918 LG to the Battle of Cambrai c.Nov 1917:

Edited 24 October , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

Hugh Daly 1758 RAMC, later 303241 (by the time he won the MM in 1917) - The National Archives' reference WO 372/23/96940:

On 10/07/2022 at 15:19, clk said:

Reading back, I see that Hugh was renumbered to 303241, which would seem to put him with the 2nd Highland Division Field Ambulance at the time of the renumber.

      Howard & Chris link this 18 Oct 1917 LG to 3rd Ypres, August 1917.

Edited 24 October , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Persimmon]

Hi Ivor,

Thanks for these updates.

Forgive my lack of knowledge but when you say- 

Howard & Chris link this 13 March 1918 LG to the Battle of Cambrai c.Nov 1917:

Howard & Chris link this 18 Oct 1917 LG to 3rd Ypres, August 1917.

Does that mean that these people (Howard and Chris) believe that the medal would be awarded for bravery action at the time of the Battle of Cambrai in November 1917 for my grandfather Denis Daly and for bravery action at the time of the 3rd Battle of Ypres in August 1917 for my great uncle Hugh Daly ?

Can you explain who Howard and Chris are ?

What does "LG" mean please ?

 

Best Wishes

Alan

 

 

[Persimmon]

Just realised LG = London Gazette

[Ivor Anderson]

Howard Williamson is 'Collectorsguide' who commented above. Chris Bate & he have done a lot of research on the MM.

They saved the MM Index Cards from being destroyed. They have written a number of books on the MM.

[Persimmon]

41 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Howard Williamson is 'Collectorsguide' who commented above. Chris Bate & he have done a lot of research on the MM.

They saved the MM Index Cards from being destroyed. They have written a number of books on the MM.

Ok thanks.

Great to have such superb chaps on the forum.

Not quite sure about those dates re when the MM were awarded.

eg. Hugh Daly award above 3rd Ypres -  ( battle of Passchendaele) August 1917

I found this article in a local newspaper showing that my great uncle Hugh Daly was awarded the MM for gallantry displayed on the 21st July 1917 which is an earlier date 

 

 

 

[Ivor Anderson]

54 minutes ago, Persimmon said:

Not quite sure about those dates re when the MM were awarded.

eg. Hugh Daly award above 3rd Ypres -  ( battle of Passchendaele) August 1917

Each MM has a unique schedule number on the index card. Hugh's was:

Howard & Chris have worked out that the ones in that gazette were for the 3rd Battle of Ypres around August 1917.

If you check the war diary for July-September 1917 the MMs may be mentioned and the battles described.

As your newspaper articles states that his MM was for 21st July, that may well be the case. 

War diary: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354763     EDIT: It has no entry for 21 July 1917, nor mention of MMs for July-August.

 

Edited 24 October , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

Hugh's MM is on a long list of MMs in the 51st Division's A&QMG war diary for August 1917:

The National Archives' reference WO 95/2849/2

Edited 24 October , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Persimmon]

8 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Hugh's MM is on a long list of MMs in the 51st Division's A&QMG war diary for August 1917:

The National Archives' reference WO 95/2849/2

Ivor

Thank you so much for this info. 

I am amazed that such information exists. I can add this to his record.  

As it states that these are awards for gallantry displayed between the 2nd July and the 7th August, that certainly fits in perfectly with the newspaper clip stating it was for action on the 21st July. 

I wonder if there is a similar document for my grandfather Denis Daly circa November 1917 ( battle of Cambrai ) 

Thank you

Alan

[Ivor Anderson]

49 minutes ago, Persimmon said:

wonder if there is a similar document for my grandfather Denis Daly circa November 1917 ( battle of Cambrai ) 

The 109th Siege Battery War Diary only goes up to March 1917: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/33bfb38ee606466d9190e90af2d1ba80

Chris' post earlier on suggested they were with 47th Bde RGA around late 1917: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/3e1c15587a374d348681b2fb7889ed20

Edited 24 October , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

Prior to Dec 1917 109th SB was with 72nd HAG/Brigade: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/5434bc3fdc224a36b41c774b08b64ba8

Edited 24 October , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[FlersChampagne]

The MM to Denis in the RGA is probably for Dec 1917. The MMs in this gazette that we know of are for December.

Regards

Chris 

[Persimmon]

16 minutes ago, FlersChampagne said:

The MM to Denis in the RGA is probably for Dec 1917. The MMs in this gazette that we know of are for December.

Regards

Chris 

Thanks Chris for the advice.                          

I will try and locate any “serious” action involving the 109th Siege Battery during December 1917 that might have been a reason for my Grandfather’s award.

Of course the MM award could have just been for a display of gallantry in a limited moment of brief action in that time period. 
                                                                Alan