Introduction & Medal Index card query

[Persimmon]

Hi.

My name is Alan Daly and I have recently joined. Having just celebrated my 65th birthday I am certainly no spring chicken ! 

My grandfather and two of his brothers served in France in the Great War. One of the brothers - Charles Daly - died in 1915 and the other two both won the Military Medal. ( My grandfather Denis Daly and my great uncle Hugh Daly - 303241 R.A.M.C.)

In the last weeks I have obtained at last my grandfathers war medals after the death of my 90+ year old Aunt. The widow of my Uncle ( my father’s elder brother ).  

My dad - as the younger brother - got his maternal grandfathers Boer War Medal which was passed to me.  

I have been doing some research into my grandfather’s sector. He was in the RGA with the 109th Siege Battery. 

This group first went overseas in June 1916. 

I have his War Medal and his Victory Medal and also his Military Medal. They also came with the boxes that the medals were sent in and the letters detailing their delivery and asking for the attached receipts to be sent back. 

I have been doing lots of online research of the National Archives website and have found all three brothers medal index cards.

Now to my query - looking at my grandfather’s medal card in addition to his Reg number - 365106, it states the award of the Victory Medal and the British Medal. 

However beside the printed word “Victory” on the medal card is (TF)

Doing some research I have found that there was a Territorial Force War Medal (TFWM) 1914-1920.  

However to qualify “ the recipient had to be a member of the Territorial Force on  4th August 1914- or to have completed no less than 4 years service and have rejoined by 30th September 1914 provided they had agreed to overseas service by then and to have served in a operational theatre outside of the U.K. between 5th August 1914 and 11th November 1918.  Anyone who qualified for the 1914 Star or the 1914/15 Star could not qualify for the (TFWM).”

Upon further Research in the Peter Warrington book - The complete Military Medal Roll 1914-19 it lists my grandfather in his listing not as RGA 109 Siege Battery but as RGA Lancashire & Cheshire Bde.  

I have by the way located both brothers Gazette details of their Military Medal award.

When researching the Lancs & Cheshire it appears this was a Territorial Force set up in 1908 which seems to suggest he was indeed in the Territorial’s.  

Has any member seen this TF marking before on the Medal index cards ? Does it indeed mean Territorial Force or is it something else that I am not aware ? 

As it’s marked on the Medal index card I have as just TF - Is there any separate listing for a Territorial Medal Roll list ? 

If the TF on the medal index card is for a Territorial Force qualification and there is no mention of a 1914 or a 1914/15 Star  on the index card SHOULD there have been a Territorial Force War Medal in his collection which is therefore currently missing  from the collection ? 

Or does it just mean he was in the Territorial Army at some point before the  109th Siege Battery was created but he was not entitled to the TFWM ? 

Any help or guidance would be much appreciated. 

 

[charlie962]

Welcome to the forum .

His service number is in a series issued to the RGA Territorial Force.

There seems to me to be an error in using Lancashire/Cheshire because their sequence stopped at 365000 and the Daly's number falls into the next block which was North Scottish(City of Aberdeen) Fortress RGA. Given that Daly was from Aberdeen then that would seem more logical.

The LongLongTrail site is stuffed with useful info on researching soldiers and has this on RGA TF numbering of 1917:

"Renumbering of the TF artillery in 1917 - The Long, Long Trail" http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-of-the-tf-artillery-in-1917/

Charlie

I think you are possibly on a red herring for the TFEM in that this would be specifically listed on the card if he was entitled. The TF ref you noted just means his BWM/VM are on a TF roll.

[charlie962]

There is one old thread on 109 Siege Bty that might be of interest?

"109 Siege Battery Royal Garrison Artillery - My Grandad's Personal - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum" https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/177261-109-siege-battery-royal-garrison-artillery-my-grandads-personal/

[charlie962]

Do you have access to Findmypast newspapers or British Newspaper Archive?

There's an article on the two brothers and their MMs here:

"The British Newspaper Archive | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000573%2f19180118%2f053&stringtohighlight=daly military medal

[RussT]

43 minutes ago, Persimmon said:

Upon further Research in the Peter Warrington book - The complete Military Medal Roll 1914-19 it lists my grandfather in his listing not as RGA 109 Siege Battery but as RGA Lancashire & Cheshire Bde.

An example it seems of "don't always believe what you read"  

As noted by Charlie, this is an error. I've never seen an example of this before but there is an error on the RGA TF Medal Roll itself (attached, courtesy of Ancestry) which is headed Lancashire & Cheshire RGA TF whereas it should read North Scottish RGA TF as do, correctly, the pages before and after this one.

Of the 10 men who are on this page, none appear to have a surviving service record and just one was awarded a Silver War Badge, appearing on the North Scottish RGA SWB Roll, as expected. He (365108 James Mathieson), is recorded as enlisting on 09/11/1914. It's quite probable that Daly enlisted on or around this date too.

It's quite common to find men who had originally joined a TF RGA unit to be subsequently transferred to a so-called Regular RGA unit e.g. 109 Siege Battery RGA in Daly's case sometime during their war service.

Regards

Russ

 

[Persimmon]

Russ, Thank you for the info. Clearly the details on the MM book re regiment come from this error you highlight. 

Additional thanks for the page attachment. 

Its all beginning to make more sense  ! 

Alan 

RGATF Medal Roll itself (attached, courtesy of Ancestry) which is headed Lancashire & Cheshire RGA TF whereas it should read North Scottish RGA TF as do, correctly, the pages before and after this one.

[Persimmon]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Welcome to the forum .

His service number is in a series issued to the RGA Territorial Force.

There seems to me to be an error in using Lancashire/Cheshire because their sequence stopped at 365000 and the Daly's number falls into the next block which was North Scottish(City of Aberdeen) Fortress RGA. Given that Daly was from Aberdeen then that would seem more logical.

The LongLongTrail site is stuffed with useful info on researching soldiers and has this on RGA TF numbering of 1917:

"Renumbering of the TF artillery in 1917 - The Long, Long Trail" http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-of-the-tf-artillery-in-1917/

Charlie

I think you are possibly on a red herring for the TFEM in that this would be specifically listed on the card if he was entitled. The TF ref you noted just means his BWM/VM are on a TF roll.

Charlie 

Thank you also for pointing out the error of my thinking. 

I was away off on a tangent but you have brought me back online. 

At least I am not worrying about finding a missing Territorial Service medal. 

The Lancs/Cheshire error re the renumbering in the TF artillery again sent me away off in another wrong tangent. 

Thanks for the link to the Long Long Trail 

best wishes

Alan 

[Persimmon]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

There is one old thread on 109 Siege Bty that might be of interest?

"109 Siege Battery Royal Garrison Artillery - My Grandad's Personal - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum" https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/177261-109-siege-battery-royal-garrison-artillery-my-grandads-personal/

Thanks Charlie. 

I had already located this upon joining the website which had much useful information for me. 

Alan 

[Persimmon]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Do you have access to Findmypast newspapers or British Newspaper Archive?

There's an article on the two brothers and their MMs here:

"The British Newspaper Archive | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000573%2f19180118%2f053&stringtohighlight=daly military medal

Charlie. 

I have not heard of this site. Is the article on my great uncle and grandfather ?   Is it a worthwhile website re joining up  ? 

Alan 

[clk]

Hi Alan,

Welcome to the Forum.

2 hours ago, Persimmon said:

but he was not entitled to the TFWM ? 

I don't think he was. Medal cards for men who were are usually marked up something like this:

Image sourced from Ancestry

It gives a cross reference to the actual medal roll (which is available on Ancestry). Another thing to note is that your card only shows a 6 digit 1917 renumber, which means that he only served overseas in an active theatre of war under that number. If he had gone overseas earlier, the card would usually show an earlier (unit) TF number - often 4 digits in length. 

The unit allocation for !09 Siege Battery is recorded as:

Image sourced from the National Archives

At the time of his MM, it would appear that the Battery was part of 47 Heavy Artillery Group. Their war diary is here.

Although not a regular visitor to the site hopefully Clare,  @pattinc (might pick up on this thread and tell you if there is anything relevant in her grandfathers personal diary. 

Good luck with your research.

Regards
Chris

 

 

Edited 9 July , 2022 by clk

[charlie962]

3 hours ago, Persimmon said:

Charlie. 

I have not heard of this site. Is the article on my great uncle and grandfather ?   Is it a worthwhile website re joining up  ? 

Alan 

"Aberdeen Weekly Journal, 18/1/1918.

Brother heroes- Fine record of Aberdeen family.

The Daly brothers are in an Aberdeen family holding a remarkably fine record in the war. The elder, Private Hugh Daly RAMC, won the Military Medal in June of last year and the younger, a Gunner in the RGA, has now secured the same coveted distinction. Denis was a blacksmith engineer in the Bon Accord Engineering Works before enlisting, and Hugh a gardener. A third brother, seaman William Daly, is a deckhand on one of HM Ships and a fourth, Private G Daly Black Watch, was killed in May 1915.

They are sons of Mr And Mrs Daly of 17 Chattan Place, Aberdeen, and it is interesting to note that the father served for 6 years in the 1st Camerons and 6 years in the Reserve. He is a veteran of Tel-el-Kebir and retired in 1890 from the Army." 

There are photos of Hugh and of Denis.

There are other articles in the local papers about the family so it would be well worth you getting access. You may find you can use your local library for free? Alternatively there is probably a free trial period direct with Findmypast that could help you decide on a full sub or not.

charlie

 

[Persimmon]

7 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Alan,

Welcome to the Forum.

I don't think he was. Medal cards for men who were are usually marked up something like this:

Image sourced from Ancestry

It gives a cross reference to the actual medal roll (which is available on Ancestry). Another thing to note is that your card only shows a 6 digit 1917 renumber, which means that he only served overseas in an active theatre of war under that number. If he had gone overseas earlier, the card would usually show an earlier (unit) TF number - often 4 digits in length. 

The unit allocation for !09 Siege Battery is recorded as:

Image sourced from the National Archives

At the time of his MM, it would appear that the Battery was part of 47 Heavy Artillery Group. Their war diary is here.

Although not a regular visitor to the site hopefully Clare,  @pattinc (might pick up on this thread and tell you if there is anything relevant in her grandfathers personal diary. 

Good luck with your research.

Regards
Chris

 

 

Thank you Chris for the info above.  

As a rookie it’s all new and clearly I have needed some guidance. I now understand about the initial 4 digit number and how it changed with a renumber in 1917. 

Its making sense. Indeed when I look at my grand uncle - Hugh Daly - and his medal card he has that 4 digit number and he was entitled to the 1914/15 Star. Serving overseas earlier. 

Many thanks

Alan

[Persimmon]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

"Aberdeen Weekly Journal, 18/1/1918.

Brother heroes- Fine record of Aberdeen family.

The Daly brothers are in an Aberdeen family holding a remarkably fine record in the war. The elder, Private Hugh Daly RAMC, won the Military Medal in June of last year and the younger, a Gunner in the RGA, has now secured the same coveted distinction. Denis was a blacksmith engineer in the Bon Accord Engineering Works before enlisting, and Hugh a gardener. A third brother, seaman William Daly, is a deckhand on one of HM Ships and a fourth, Private G Daly Black Watch, was killed in May 1915.

They are sons of Mr And Mrs Daly of 17 Chattan Place, Aberdeen, and it is interesting to note that the father served for 6 years in the 1st Camerons and 6 years in the Reserve. He is a veteran of Tel-el-Kebir and retired in 1890 from the Army." 

There are photos of Hugh and of Denis.

There are other articles in the local papers about the family so it would be well worth you getting access. You may find you can use your local library for free? Alternatively there is probably a free trial period direct with Findmypast that could help you decide on a full sub or not.

charlie

 

 

Thanks Charlie for the supplied information. I will join as I would love to see the photos etc. 

I also now find out there was a fourth brother in the War, namely my great uncle William Hastie Daly so I need to some research into him and his life on the waves. 

Even more special it mentions that my great Grandfather Charles Daly was an ex soldier who had fought in the battle of Tell El Kebir on the 13 September 1882 in Egypt.

Until now I had only known his date of birth 1854 ( so he was 28 at the time of the battle ), some census info from 1891 etc and his date of death and of course his wife and their children info. 

This opens up further research avenues on my great grandfather. Great news. 

Best Wishes

Alan

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, Persimmon said:

This opens up further research avenues on my great grandfather. Great news

You risk getting hooked on this research ...

[Persimmon]

1 minute ago, charlie962 said:

You risk getting hooked on this research ...

To quote Michael Corleone- “Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in again “ !!

[charlie962]

Here on Findmypast (perhaps also available via Ancestry) is a service record for a Charles Daly born 1854, Creiff, who served in 79th Foot (Cameron Highlanders) and earned the Egypt campaign medal and the Khedive's Star.

Could this be your GGF? 

Charlie 

"British Army Service Records 1760-1915 Image | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO97%2F2619%2F142%2F001&parentid=GBM%2FWO97%2F2619%2F60812

Edited 10 July , 2022 by charlie962

[RussT]

2 hours ago, Persimmon said:

I now understand about the initial 4 digit number

In actual fact, in this particular case Daly's pre-1917 TF number would have had 3 digits !!

The TF was created in 1908 - most units decided to commence a new number series beginning with the number 1.

Over the years with the general turnover of men by the time war was declared in 1914 many units had indeed reached 4 digits. But I think the reason why the North Scottish RGA TF had not was because of the relatively smaller establishment of such a Fortress RGA unit compared to, for example, an infantry battalion.

It was very common for TF units to re-number their men in 1917 in previous pre-1917 number order (as long as they were still serving with the unit of course).

So we have:

261 became 365093

xxx became 365106 (Daly)

298 became 365124

First prize to anyone who can narrow down Daly's pre-1917 number 

Regards

Russ

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Just to add that if you create a free account on Ancestry, you can download colour copies of all the MICs you want to see.

They're far better images than the black & white ones at the NA.

[RussT]

10 hours ago, clk said:

Another thing to note is that your card only shows a 6 digit 1917 renumber, which means that he only served overseas in an active theatre of war under that number. If he had gone overseas earlier, the card would usually show an earlier (unit) TF number - often 4 digits in length. 

Whilst this is generally true it is by no mean universal - unfortunately this is so oft repeated that it seems now to have become an accepted statement of fact. I've come across countless examples where this is not the case. It seems it was simply down to the Medal Roll compilers of a given unit as to whether they included a man's pre 1917 TF number on the Roll even if a man had served overseas before re-numbering. Most units did (I think correctly) but evidently a few didn't.

This RGA TF unit is an example of one which apparently didn't.

Here is the Service Record of 298/365124 Alexander Bowie who embarked Davenport/disembarked Salonika in July/August 1916 yet his Medal Roll simply shows his 6-digit 1917 re-number.

So I wouldn't necessarily rush to conclude that Daly first went overseas post re-numbering in 1917.

Service Record courtesy FMP & Medal Roll courtesy Ancestry

Regards

Russ

 

[RussT]

And just adding to the probable enlistment date for Daly (365106) we have:

365093 enlisted 05/11/1914

365106 ?

365108 enlisted 09/11/1914

365124 enlisted 16/11/1914

Regards

Russ

[charlie962]

5 hours ago, Persimmon said:

namely my great uncle William Hastie Daly

Again to wet your appetite here is a Record Card for him on Findmypast. But I suggest you open a separate thread for him under Sailors, navies and the War at Sea.

"Royal Naval Division Service Records 1914-1920 Image | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fadm339%2f0105-dalt%2f00035&parentid=gbm%2fadm339%2f16384

[Persimmon]

5 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Here on Findmypast (perhaps also available via Ancestry) is a service record for a Charles Daly born 1854, Creiff, who served in 79th Foot (Cameron Highlanders) and earned the Egypt campaign medal and the Khedive's Star.

Could this be your GGF? 

Charlie 

"British Army Service Records 1760-1915 Image | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO97%2F2619%2F142%2F001&parentid=GBM%2FWO97%2F2619%2F60812

Hi Charlie

Yes indeed that is my great grandfather. He was born in Crieff in 1854 and was in the Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders- 79th Foot. 

[Persimmon]

4 hours ago, RussT said:

Whilst this is generally true it is by no mean universal - unfortunately this is so oft repeated that it seems now to have become an accepted statement of fact. I've come across countless examples where this is not the case. It seems it was simply down to the Medal Roll compilers of a given unit as to whether they included a man's pre 1917 TF number on the Roll even if a man had served overseas before re-numbering. Most units did (I think correctly) but evidently a few didn't.

This RGA TF unit is an example of one which apparently didn't.

Here is the Service Record of 298/365124 Alexander Bowie who embarked Davenport/disembarked Salonika in July/August 1916 yet his Medal Roll simply shows his 6-digit 1917 re-number.

So I wouldn't necessarily rush to conclude that Daly first went overseas post re-numbering in 1917.

Service Record courtesy FMP & Medal Roll courtesy Ancestry

Regards

Russ

 

Russ. Thanks for the information about the files for the RGA not being fully perfect and the example of Bowie. 

It does seem strange to me that my grandfather Denis Daly was not overseas before. He was the third brother in line. 

Of the four brothers Charles Daly, the oldest, was killed in 1915 and earned his 1914/15 medal. The second son - William Hastie Daly was in the navy and on his record card I have found, he earned the 1914/15 Star. The youngest brother was Hugh Daly who in addition to the MM gained a 1914/15 Star. 

Perhaps there was a old number for Denis but it’s lost in family records and the system did not mark it down. Perhaps family commitments meant he didn’t / wasn’t allowed to go until 1917. 

It’s a mystery 

Thanks

Alan 

[ss002d6252]

10 minutes ago, Persimmon said:

Perhaps there was a old number for Denis but it’s lost in family records and the system did not mark it down

There was definitely a pre-1917 number - he served from November 1914 to around January 1917 with it. It's just a case of trying to tie it down.

Craig

[Persimmon]

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

There was definitely a pre-1917 number - he served from November 1914 to around January 1917 with it. It's just a case of trying to tie it down.

Craig

Craig. 

Thanks for the reply. 

If that is the case re serving from November 1914 onwards based on the number - would my Grandfather- Denis Daly not have been entitled to the 1914/15 Star like his other three brothers ? 

Its not on his Medal roll card index or indeed with the MM and the War and the Victory medals I now have. 

Would that imply he wasn’t untitled to that award as maybe he was based in the UK until 1917 ?

or 

If the records were listed wrongly someone officially made an error and failed to mark down his entitlement to the 1914/15 Star and maybe after the war and the hell that all of these soldiers suffered he simply didn’t care to worry or chase it ?

Alan