Officers and tin helmets

[Yankee Snaffles]

Is there recorded evidence of officers simply taking OR helmets from stores or at issuance as made rather than purchasing something or modifying privately?  Was one course of action more prevalent?  Cheers!

Edited 10 March , 2023 by Yankee Snaffles

[pioneecorps]

I read somewhere, that the death rate went down by wearing them, and that the casualty rate went up.

I would think that many of the casualties would have been unfit for further fighting for the rest of the War.

And unfit in their civilian life's.

Gerwyn 

[TullochArd]

25 minutes ago, pioneecorps said:

I read somewhere, that the death rate went down by wearing them, and that the casualty rate went up.

Yes, I recall this story from my school Maths lessons many years ago regarding the use/misuse of statistics.  The head fatalities appeared to go down with the introduction of helmets but head casualties appeared to rise with the introduction of helmets.  The conclusion was all to do with an increase in the numbers of survivable casualties, who would have been fatalities without the helmet. rather than helmets in any way adversely affecting casualty rates ...... or something like that.   

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, Yankee Snaffles said:

Is there recorded evidence of officers simply taking OR helmets from stores or at issuance as made rather than purchasing something or modifying privately?  Was one course of action more prevalent?  Cheers!

I can’t give you a categorical answer, but it was very deeply bedded in British Army officer culture than an officer privately purchased his own uniform and equipment, including side arms.  The only specification was that the latter should fire government issue ammunition.  Factor in the hygiene aspect (for an officer shaved and cologned he might’ve had concerns about wearing helmets used by others) and it seems much less likely that government issue helmets were used other than in absolute extremis.

That said, things did start to change during the last 2-years of the war when high Officer casualties led to an increase in men commissioned from the ranks who could not afford the conventional method of kitting out.  As a result a government cash grant was introduced to defray costs, but even then it seems unlikely that there would’ve suddenly been a take up of government issue helmets.

Edited 10 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Yankee Snaffles]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I can’t give you a categorical answer, but it was very deeply bedded in British Army officer culture than an officer privately purchased his own uniform and equipment, including side arms.  The only specification was that the latter should fire government issue ammunition.  Factor in the hygiene aspect (for an officer shaved and cologned he might’ve had concerns about wearing helmets used by others) and it seems much less likely that government issue helmets were used other than in absolute extremis.

That said, things did start to change during the last 2-years of the war when high Officer casualties led to an increase in men commissioned from the ranks who could not afford the conventional method of kitting out.  As a result a government cash grant was introduced to defray costs, but even then it seems unlikely that there would’ve suddenly been a take up of government issue helmets.

Thank you, FROGSMILE - excellent points to consider and most helpful.

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 10/03/2023 at 03:43, Yankee Snaffles said:

Is there recorded evidence of officers simply taking OR helmets from stores or at issuance as made rather than purchasing something or modifying privately?  Was one course of action more prevalent?  Cheers!

I am no expert on these matters, and can only speak from one man's personal experience, that of my grandfather, which is summarised in my post in this thread dated 13 June 2022 . As he was in 2/5th LF, a TF battalion, his experience may have differed from that of the regular army, but what he has to say on the subject as set out above suggests to me that one or two officers had acquired already by the time they received an issue of steel helmets while they were at Monchiet in April 1916, but that he himself hadn't done so. What he says at that stage suggests to me that he was in the same boat as the men as regards the issue of helmets, and that the issue of helmets by the army proceeded in a similar way for both officers and men. He certainly doesn't say that he had to order one from home, or give the impression that he had any discretion about the design.

Presumably those officers whom my GF mentions as having helmets before they were issued more generally might well have placed their own orders for helmets to be supplied from the UK, but when they became standard equipment at the front is it thought that an officer would still have to place an order for his own (my GF's account doesn't absolutely rule out this possibility, even though he doesn't specifically mention that he did)? Or might he have had the option of taking a helmet from the same source as the men? If the latter, would he have been required to pay for it, thus making it - like the rest of his equipment - his own?

Edited 12 March , 2023 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[Yankee Snaffles]

21 minutes ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I am no expert on these matters, and can only speak from one man's personal experience, that of my grandfather, which is summarised in my post in this thread dated 13 June 2022 . As he was in 2/5th LF, a TF battalion, his experience may have differed from that of the regular army, but what he has to say on the subject as set out above suggests to me that one or two officers had acquired already by the time they received an issue of steel helmets while they were at Monchiet in April 1916, but that he himself hadn't done so. What he says at that stage suggests to me that he was in the same boat as the men as regards the issue of helmets, and that the issue of helmets by the army proceeded in a similar for both officers and men. He certainly doesn't say that he had to order one from home, or give the impression that he had any discretion about the design.

Presumably those officers whom my GF mentions as having helmets before they were issued more generally might well have placed their own orders for helmets to be supplied from the UK, but when they became standard equipment at the front is it thought that an officer would still have to place an order for his own (my GF's account doesn't absolutely rule out this possibility, even though he doesn't specifically mention that he did). Or might he have had the option of taking a helmet from the same source as the men? If the latter, would he have been required to pay for it, thus making it - like the rest of his equipment - his own?

Many thanks for summarizing that previous post here.  It’s an interesting first hand account to support the idea of at least some helmet ISSUANCE to officers.  

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I am no expert on these matters, and can only speak from one man's personal experience, that of my grandfather, which is summarised in my post in this thread dated 13 June 2022 . As he was in 2/5th LF, a TF battalion, his experience may have differed from that of the regular army, but what he has to say on the subject as set out above suggests to me that one or two officers had acquired already by the time they received an issue of steel helmets while they were at Monchiet in April 1916, but that he himself hadn't done so. What he says at that stage suggests to me that he was in the same boat as the men as regards the issue of helmets, and that the issue of helmets by the army proceeded in a similar for both officers and men. He certainly doesn't say that he had to order one from home, or give the impression that he had any discretion about the design.

Presumably those officers whom my GF mentions as having helmets before they were issued more generally might well have placed their own orders for helmets to be supplied from the UK, but when they became standard equipment at the front is it thought that an officer would still have to place an order for his own (my GF's account doesn't absolutely rule out this possibility, even though he doesn't specifically mention that he did). Or might he have had the option of taking a helmet from the same source as the men? If the latter, would he have been required to pay for it, thus making it - like the rest of his equipment - his own?

There was an administrative arrangement whereby officers could purchase items directly from Ordnance stores Tricia, so it’s quite conceivable that your grandfather did that.  Although it was usually only used for a fairly limited range of items, it was a very longstanding procedure and still exists today.  It’s intention was to be pragmatic, and not preclude items from being accessed by officers when it simply wasn’t feasible, or sensible to order them from home.  The inviolate principle though was that the officer had to purchase them.  

Edited 12 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Yankee Snaffles]

39 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

There was an administrative arrangement whereby officers could purchase items directly from Ordnance stores Tricia, so it’s quite conceivable that your grandfather did that.  Although it was usually only used for a fairly limited range of items, it was a very longstanding procedure and still exists today.  It’s intention was to be pragmatic, and not preclude items from being accessed by officers when it simply wasn’t feasible, or sensible to order them from home.  The inviolate principle though was that the officer had to purchase them.  

Thanks for the further expansion of information Frogsmile - the need for officers to pay the government regardless of circumstances.  Would it also be safe to say that the unique situation described by A LF by Proxy from April 1916 would have been when helmets were first appearing in substantial quantities on the Western Front - and hence many officers may have been seeing these for the first time and likely not had the opportunity to purchase yet from home?  Cheers to all!

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Yankee Snaffles said:

Thanks for the further expansion of information Frogsmile - the need for officers to pay the government regardless of circumstances.  Would it also be safe to say that the unique situation described by A LF by Proxy from April 1916 would have been when helmets were first appearing in substantial quantities on the Western Front - and hence many officers may have been seeing these for the first time and likely not had the opportunity to purchase yet from home?  Cheers to all!

That seems likely.  The helmets were initially issued on trial as I understand it and in limited numbers as trench stores.  Later a high scale roll out was arranged through the ordnance chain so that entire units were equipped.  From that time individual soldiers retained their helmets with them as they moved to and fro for stints of duty in the line, in support, and in rest, via a rotation (roulement) of units.  

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thanks both, it does look as though my GF might have purchased his helmet from ordnance stores. I get the impression that the same may have happened with gas helmets, as his writing gives the impression that the gas helmets with their various incremental improvements were issued to him as standard, rather than his having to source his own each time an improvement came along.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

Thanks both, it does look as though my GF might have purchased his helmet from ordnance stores. I get the impression that the same may have happened with gas helmets, as his writing gives the impression that the gas helmets with their various incremental improvements were issued to him as standard, rather than his having to source his own each time an improvement came along.

You raise an interesting point Tricia because from an Army viewpoint the helmet was a piece of headdress (albeit protective) and fitted to a man’s head (hence adjustment and or sizing).  Conversely the gas mask might have been categorised differently and I’m not sure what it’s status was, whether it was considered personal clothing and therefore whether an officer would have to pay for it.  Later on respirators had to be fitted to individuals faces and so were sized and categorised as a personal issue, but I’m not sure when that began.  Perhaps with the box respirators, but that’s just my guess.  Someone on the forum will know I’m sure.

Edited 12 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Black Maria]

Just a couple of extracts from 'They also served' by Cecil Thomas , writing about the German attack at Vimy Ridge in April 1916 ,  which i found of interest . " How i long for one of those steel helmets some of the fellows have , but supplies as yet are short and only one or two have been issued to each platoon . Even then they are considered a doubtful privilege as their efficiency is questioned whilst their weight is undoubted " . Later writing about being under heavy enemy shell fire he writes " Another heavy clod falls on me, bruising my shoulder, and , seeing that Lew next to me has a steel helmet on i shout to him to pass the word for one for me , if there is to spare . After some minutes a helmet is passed along and i hasten to put it on , first of all trying to fix it over my cap ( for it is the first time i have handled one ) then , realizing that it is an alternative and not an additional headgear , discarding the latter , and strapping the former tightly under my chin " . Seconds later a sharp pointed lump of flint lands on his steel helmet , dazing him but no doubt saving him from serious injury or worse .

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Black Maria said:

Just a couple of extracts from 'They also served' by Cecil Thomas , writing about the German attack at Vimy Ridge in April 1916 ,  which i found of interest . " How i long for one of those steel helmets some of the fellows have , but supplies as yet are short and only one or two have been issued to each platoon . Even then they are considered a doubtful privilege as their efficiency is questioned whilst their weight is undoubted " . Later writing about being under heavy enemy shell fire he writes " Another heavy clod falls on me, bruising my shoulder, and , seeing that Lew next to me has a steel helmet on i shout to him to pass the word for one for me , if there is to spare . After some minutes a helmet is passed along and i hasten to put it on , first of all trying to fix it over my cap ( for it is the first time i have handled one ) then , realizing that it is an alternative and not an additional headgear , discarding the latter , and strapping the former tightly under my chin " . Seconds later a sharp pointed lump of flint lands on his steel helmet , dazing him but no doubt saving him from serious injury or worse .

That seems quite typical of the early steel helmet days in 1916.  It has made me wonder how many officers later purchased helmets at home as part of their kitting out before embarkation and how many purchased them from Ordance stocks on arrival.  Traditionally headdress (of various types) provided by Military Outfitters and tailors might often be sourced from the same manufacturer but then given a special liner that advertised the outfitter, often with a range of unique selling points to make theirs different/better in the eyes of the customer.

Edited 13 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

Superb cartoon by Duncan Campbell at the top of the post - especially for 1915

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

Superb cartoon by Duncan Campbell at the top of the post - especially for 1915

Yes I agree, it’s definitely a favourite of mine, too.

[peregrinvs]

On 13/03/2023 at 16:10, 6RRF said:

Superb cartoon by Duncan Campbell at the top of the post - especially for 1915

The ‘That Sword’ cartoon by Bairnsfather has a similar sentiment.

http://www.regimentalrogue.com/blog/index.blog/2306273/romance-versus-reality-that-sword/

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, peregrinvs said:

The ‘That Sword’ cartoon by Bairnsfather has a similar sentiment.

http://www.regimentalrogue.com/blog/index.blog/2306273/romance-versus-reality-that-sword/

Yes yet another classic of his.

[FROGSMILE]

This one is perhaps rather more relevant to the thread…

[Grovetown]

On 10/03/2023 at 17:22, FROGSMILE said:

an officer privately purchased his own uniform and equipment, including side arms. 

This is indisputable, yet I was thinking about OR uniform and equipment worn by officers in the line as per the famous photograph of the  Lancashire Fusiliers at Beaumont Hamel .

According to Tocemma, late of this place and one who would know, 1908 or 1914 pattern equipment was free issue to officers from December 1914., they having been ordered to wear it in the front line.

Obviously some units were more conventional than others and resisted, while other individuals bought Mills's fancy officer equivalents; but the offer was there so to speak.

Similarly, offensive orders in 1916 specified full OR kit for officers a la our LF man at Beaumont Hamel and that included uniform.

Of the few examples of OR SD known to have been worn by officers around, they are all 'issue' items. If it was something they purchased, one might have expected to see one from Hobson (who did make OR SD for pre-war TF units - HAC, for example) but they're all issue.

One can't recall in any memoirs anyone mentioning (or complaining) about having to buy a set of OR service dress or equipment for offensive purposes.

Although absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, my inference is that OR SD was free, as was 08/14 equipment, for trench purposes and it follows that helmets and gas equipment was too.

As above, you could buy it if you wanted to (esp. helmets and gas equipment* in 1915), but you didn't have to.

Cheers,

GT.

*Private purchase gas masks were worse than useless and rapidly abandoned when the official stuff came on stream.

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 15/03/2023 at 13:18, Grovetown said:

This is indisputable, yet I was thinking about OR uniform and equipment worn by officers in the line as per the famous photograph of the  Lancashire Fusiliers at Beaumont Hamel .

According to Tocemma, late of this place and one who would know, 1908 or 1914 pattern equipment was free issue to officers from December 1914., they having been ordered to wear it in the front line.

Obviously some units were more conventional than others and resisted, while other individuals bought Mills's fancy officer equivalents; but the offer was there so to speak.

Similarly, offensive orders in 1916 specified full OR kit for officers a la our LF man at Beaumont Hamel and that included uniform.

Of the few examples of OR SD known to have been worn by officers around, they are all 'issue' items. If it was something they purchased, one might have expected to see one from Hobson (who did make OR SD for pre-war TF units - HAC, for example) but they're all issue.

One can't recall in any memoirs anyone mentioning (or complaining) about having to buy a set of OR service dress or equipment for offensive purposes.

Although absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, my inference is that OR SD was free, as was 08/14 equipment, for trench purposes and it follows that helmets and gas equipment was too.

As above, you could buy it if you wanted to (esp. helmets and gas equipment* in 1915), but you didn't have to.

Cheers,

GT.

*Private purchase gas masks were worse than useless and rapidly abandoned when the official stuff came on stream.

 

Yes, you make an excellent point about [infantry] officers wearing soldiers SD and clearly they wouldn’t have had to pay for that.  I’m sure that helmets would have increasingly been dealt with practicably as you say.  I’ve long gained the strong impression that practices in the second half of the war were (not unnaturally) very different from the first half.  One doesn’t often see good quality photographs of officers wearing OR clothing, but one was posted not long back that I commented upon.  The photo I posted above was I think from 1916, with the officers still very noticeable from their cuff ranks.  I suspect that the practice in many regular army battalions differed from those in the New Armies, although the differences became less as each year passed (a good example though being cloth formation patches).  It’s a shame we don’t see Tocemma post like we once did, although I do understand that he’s been busy making a living.

Edited 16 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

2 hours ago, Grovetown said:

Obviously some units were more conventional than others and resisted, while other individuals bought Mills's fancy officer equivalents; but the offer was there so to speak.

Similarly, offensive orders in 1916 specified full OR kit for officers a la our LF man at Beaumont Hamel and that included uniform.

Of the few examples of OR SD known to have been worn by officers around, they are all 'issue' items. If it was something they purchased, one might have expected to see one from Hobson (who did make OR SD for pre-war TF units - HAC, for example) but they're all issue.

One can't recall in any memoirs anyone mentioning (or complaining) about having to buy a set of OR service dress or equipment for offensive purposes.

Although absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, my inference is that OR SD was free, as was 08/14 equipment, for trench purposes and it follows that helmets and gas equipment was too.

As above, you could buy it if you wanted to (esp. helmets and gas equipment* in 1915), but you didn't have to.

The same of course remains true today. The Army in its benevolence supplies its soldiers with every item of clothing and personal equipment they require, but in my own service [and no I wasn't an officer] it was accepted that in the course of events we bought additional and better kit from external sources

[Insusvodullus]

British officers wearing the French steel helmet was not restricted to Churchill, and helmets as 'private purchase' items for officers began as early as 1915.  Photos are admittedly rare, but I've seen both French helmets, and a British shaped 'bowl' with a multi fluted skull in original pictures.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Insusvodullus said:

British officers wearing the French steel helmet was not restricted to Churchill, and helmets as 'private purchase' items for officers began as early as 1915.  Photos are admittedly rare, but I've seen both French helmets, and a British shaped 'bowl' with a multi fluted skull in original pictures.

Yes the British Army was a little slow off the mark for the preferences of some officers and Commercial Outfitters were quick to step into the breach, as well as favours called in from various French sources.  I don’t think anyone was suggesting, or meaning to give the impression that it was just Winston Churchill who started using individual initiative, and the 1916 reference was purely about the widespread issue to all ranks in that year.  

Edited 15 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Lammy]

You have probably all seen this mage before. 27th November 1915 War Illustrated. So im presuming the picture is a month or two older. September > October 1915?