Officers and tin helmets

[seaJane]

Apologies, because I'm sure this question has been asked before, but my search skills aren't working tonight...

When was the decision made that British Army officers could wear tin helmets instead of caps?

Thanks in advance,

sJ

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, seaJane said:

Apologies, because I'm sure this question has been asked before, but my search skills aren't working tonight...

When was the decision made that British Army officers could wear tin helmets instead of caps?

Thanks in advance,

sJ

Steel helmets were issued on a widespread basis in 1916 seaJane.  As officers were taking the same risks as their men, and expected to lead by example in every respect, I’ve always understood it that the helmets were issued to all ranks.  As well as leaving their heads unprotected from overhead shrapnel bursts, being without helmets among men with helmets would have made the officers a target for every marksman in the German army. 

Edited 12 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[seaJane]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

being without helmets among men with helmets would have made the officers a target

That's what I'd thought, but for some reason I'd assumed there was a delay before the officers had equal protection.

Thank you so much!

 

[FROGSMILE]

49 minutes ago, seaJane said:

That's what I'd thought, but for some reason I'd assumed there was a delay before the officers had equal protection.

Thank you so much!

 

It’s an interesting point that many officers purchased their own helmets just like any other piece of their equipment.  Churchill famously used a French Adrian helmet early on, and there’s an interesting 1916 photo of the young Captain Montgomery (later Field Marshal) wearing a trenchcoat and private purchase helmet of noticeably different shape to the Brodie type.

Edited 12 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[seaJane]

22 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

many officers purchased their own helmets just like any other piece of their equipment.

Ah! that hadn't occurred to me. Great pictures again!

sJ

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, seaJane said:

Ah! that hadn't occurred to me. Great pictures again!

sJ

It’s interesting that his Major General, who Montgomery stands next to, is wearing the Brodie type helmet with his badge of rank on it, whereas Montgomery himself wears the more compact, private purchase type that coined the British phrase “battle bowler” due to its similarity to a bowler hat. 

Edited 12 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

I wonder if there was any specification that private purchase helmets had to meet. There may have been a temptation to make a lighter officer`s version from thinner or less impact resistant steel which would not be in the wearer`s best interests. Tin is, of course, a metal quite distinct from iron, the major constituent of steel and "tin" is often used to mean tinplate - tinplated steel which is usually thin and made largely for canning.

Edited 13 June , 2022 by PhilB

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, PhilB said:

I wonder if there was any specification that private purchase helmets had to meet. There may have been a temptation to make a lighter officer`s version from thinner or less impact resistant steel which would not be in the wearer`s best interests. Tin is, of course, a metal quite distinct from iron, the major constituent of steel and "tin" is often used to mean tinplate - tinplated steel which is usually thin and made largely for canning.

It’s an interesting thought Phil.  Apparently when Portugal was seeking to equip its expeditionary force it had no indigenous manufacturing capability and when it approached Britain for help the then Director of Munitions Supply was able to source a commercially produced version of the Brodie helmet, originally intended to be sold to British officers at the time when helmets were in short supply.  Hadfield Ltd of Sheffield was one of the companies that sold private purchase helmets to officers.  I can’t imagine that they would have been inferior, presumably there would have been some kind of patent, although it seems that decidedly inferior types made of a range of materials were made for sale to civilians during WW2.  One significant aspect is that the liners were often stamped with the officers’ outfitters trademark just like any other headgear, or uniform that they supplied, having themselves sourced the helmet from a manufacturer of steel items.  There is a good thread on helmet manufacturers here: 

 

Edited 13 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Grovetown]

6 hours ago, PhilB said:

I wonder if there was any specification that private purchase helmets had to meet. There may have been a temptation to make a lighter officer`s version from thinner or less impact resistant steel which would not be in the wearer`s best interests. 

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Hadfield Ltd of Sheffield was one of the companies that sold private purchase helmets to officers.  I can’t imagine that they would have been inferior, presumably there would have been some kind of patent, 

 

When considering officers' helmets and quality, it is important to distinguish between private purchase Brodie style helmets, and private purchase Brodies.

In the case of the former, very often the fluted style copied (and abandoned) by the Portuguese, they were thin, mild steel deemed of little ballistic value and eventually "the sale of the helmets was proscribed" (Haselgrove).

Hadfields did not sell private purchase helmets to officers but suppled retailers with 'official' shells, produced alongside government contract items, into which the retailers - such as Hawkes & Co - would fit their own liners.

Alternatively, officers could take an issue helmet to a retailer for re-fitting with a new commercial liner.

Cheers,

GT.

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Grovetown said:

When considering officers' helmets and quality, it is important to distinguish between private purchase Brodie style helmets, and private purchase Brodies.

In the case of the former, very often the fluted style copied (and abandoned) by the Portuguese, they were thin, mild steel deemed of little ballistic value and eventually "the sale of the helmets was proscribed" (Haselgrove).

Hadfields did not sell private purchase helmets to officers but suppled retailers with 'official' shells, produced alongside government contract items, into which the retailers - such as Hawkes & Co - would fit their own liners.

Alternatively, officers could take an issue helmet to a retailer for re-fitting with a new commercial liner.

Cheers,

GT.

Thanks for clarifying matters GT, I had perfectly understood that Hawkes provided just the liner, and mentioned it quite categorically in my penultimate sentence:

“One significant aspect is that the liners were often stamped with the officers’ outfitters trademark just like any other headgear, or uniform that they supplied, having themselves sourced the helmet from a manufacturer of steel items.”

My point was that the steel helmet manufacturer was providing the helmet for private purchase, but through a third party business, the commercial outfitter.  There was nothing at all unusual about that and it was the same mode of business pursued by officers military outfitters for a great variety of personal equipment, including uniforms, trench coats and British warms, caps, boots, binoculars, torches, and all manner of other trench gear.  Steel helmets were just an addition to that list.

Edited 13 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

I can usually depend upon my grandad commenting in his diary on day to day details such as this, and he has not let me down. I appreciate that this is just one man’s experience, and may not be typical of the experience of all, especially as he was in the TF, but here is what he has to say on the subject of the introduction of steel helmets to his Division, the 55^th West Lancashire Division.

The very first mention that he makes of a steel helmet is on 31 December 1915, when it is being worn by an officer on a raid out across No Man’s Land in the Authuille Wood area; the helmet is dropped on the road, and “rang out like an alarm bell”.

The next occasion on which a steel helmet is mentioned is in March 1916, when it was again worn by an officer, Brigadier General Duncan, CO of the 165^th Brigade, who had come into the lines of the 164^th Brigade (my GF’s Brigade) to enquire about the positioning of machine guns.

On neither of these occasions does my GF mention that these steel helmets were an unfamiliar item and/or had been recently introduced. It is apparent, however, that the men who accompanied Brigadier General Duncan on his tour were not wearing steel helmets, as my GF, not knowing his name at the time, refers to him as “the officer with the steel helmet” to distinguish him from the others in the group.

However, the next time steel helmets are mentioned, at the beginning of April 1916, he says:

While at Monchiet we had an issue of steel helmets. These were anything but popular. They felt heavy and uncomfortable after the soft Field Service cap, and it was only by being especially stout about the wearing of steel helmets that the men eventually got used to them, and as time went on fully appreciated their protective value against shrapnel. Personally I detested them intensely, but I am confident that they really were the means of saving thousands of lives. We hadn’t anything like one per man, and hadn’t yet used them, except an odd one or two, in the Line.

The reference to my GF’s personal dislike of them makes it pretty clear that he, as an officer, was also wearing one for at least some of the time, and, as suggested by Frogsmile’s post, it is to be expected that “being stout about” the wearing of them would involve leading by example.

Edited 13 June , 2022 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[seaJane]

That's interesting that they were so disliked - thank you!

[PhilB]

Were the originals made in one size to fit all? I don`t remember being given a choice!

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, PhilB said:

Were the originals made in one size to fit all? I don`t remember being given a choice!

According to the Imperial War Museum: “a six-tongue liner of black American cloth is attached to the liner band and features a tape tie that would permit the wearer to adjust the fit of the liner to suit, there being apertures at the ends of the tongues.”  That makes sense and had been my understanding.  It had clearly been made as simple an arrangement as possible Phil.

[gnr.ktrha]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the first issue of helmets were not to individuals but as Trench Stores. That is to say, there would be so many helmets issued to each section of front line trench and these would be handed over by the out going unit to the incoming unit. If this is true, does anyone know how long this practice continued for?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, gnr.ktrha said:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the first issue of helmets were not to individuals but as Trench Stores. That is to say, there would be so many helmets issued to each section of front line trench and these would be handed over by the out going unit to the incoming unit. If this is true, does anyone know how long this practice continued for?

Yes that’s correct, the type A Brodie, made of magnetic soft steel, was initially and on a trial basis apparently issued on a scale of 50 ‘shrapnel helmets’ (as they were first called) per battalion was considered sufficient.

[Mk VII]

Good way of spreading head lice around.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Mk VII said:

Good way of spreading head lice around.

I don’t think they needed much encouragement to spread given the amount of chatting already going on. 

[Michael Haselgrove]

17 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

According to the Imperial War Museum: “a six-tongue liner of black American cloth is attached to the liner band and features a tape tie that would permit the wearer to adjust the fit of the liner to suit, there being apertures at the ends of the tongues.”  That makes sense and had been my understanding.  It had clearly been made as simple an arrangement as possible Phil.

PhilB,

The above is correct as far as the rimless War Office Helmet is concerned.  However, following testing of that helmet in March 1916 one of the suggested improvements was that the helmet be provided in three sizes.  One thousand helmets incorporating all the changes requested were manufactured and sent to France for evaluation on the 2nd May 1916.  The new helmet was approved on the 15th May 1916 with a request for another, extra large, size to be provided.  This helmet became the Helmet, Steel, Mk I.  The size of the helmet is often to be found on the top section of the chinstrap.

Regards,

Michael.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, Michael Haselgrove said:

PhilB,

The above is correct as far as the rimless War Office Helmet is concerned.  However, following testing of that helmet in March 1916 one of the suggested improvements was that the helmet be provided in three sizes.  One thousand helmets incorporating all the changes requested were manufactured and sent to France for evaluation on the 2nd May 1916.  The new helmet was approved on the 15th May 1916 with a request for another, extra large, size to be provided.  This helmet became the Helmet, Steel, Mk I.  The size of the helmet is often to be found on the top section of the chinstrap.

Regards,

Michael.

 

 

That’s interesting Michael.  That sizing was still broadly the same I think for the 1943 final pattern steel helmet, the turtle type. 

[PhilB]

That is interesting. Do you have a photo of such a strap?

 

[michaeldr]

On 12/06/2022 at 23:04, FROGSMILE said:

It’s an interesting point that many officers purchased their own helmets just like any other piece of their equipment.  Churchill famously used a French Adrian helmet

WSC was presented with his Casque Adrian by General Émile Fayolle. This was almost certainly taken on that  occasion https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205125478

Edited 15 June , 2022 by michaeldr

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

WSC was presented with his Casque Adrian by General Émile Fayolle. This was almost certainly taken on that  occasion https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205125478

Thank you Michael, I was careful to use the word ‘used’ rather than bought precisely because I couldn’t recall where the helmet came from.  I assumed some French connection because it wouldn’t make sense for a British officer to wear a foreign army’s helmet unless he were Winston Churchill…

Regards,

FS

Edited 15 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[michaeldr]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

it wouldn’t make sense for a British officer to wear a foreign army helmet unless he were Winston Churchill

Ever practical, he thought it "will perhaps protect my valuable cranium."   Today it is on display at Chartwell

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, michaeldr said:

Ever practical, he thought it "will perhaps protect my valuable cranium."   Today it is on display at Chartwell

I remember seeing it as a boy, but not where it was, although my father regularly took us to visit Chartwell on summer weekends, so perhaps it was there then.