Men at Work

[FrancesH]

I bought this postcard yesterday, interested by a portrayal of soldiers with shovels, etc, implements with which many spent at least as much time as with a gun. The only clue which might indicate who they are and where it was taken is a printed note on the back that further copies are available from B.C. Clemons, Tonbridge. Of course it's possible that it might have been taken on the Western Front and only printed in Tonbridge. Anyone any thoughts about who they are and what they are doing?

[johntaylor]

Very nice photo - the cap badge is clearly Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment), and I would guess it was taken either in training or while they were carrying out some construction or clearance work in camp. The paling fence and rows of houses in the distance on the right look very typical of the Home Counties rather than the Western Front. The sergeant in the middle, and man at back left, have medal ribbons but I can't work them out and the sergeant also looks to have overseas service chevrons on his sleeve, which suggests this may have been taken later in the war. They're also not in the first flush of youth so I wonder if they might have been members of a Pioneer battalion.

Someone may be able to offer advice on the tools they're holding, some of which look pretty specialised.

All the best, John 

Edited 8 May , 2022 by johntaylor

[FROGSMILE]

I agree with John’s comments.  They have the look of a Territorial Force unit, although the mature fellow rear left has some medal ribbons indicating earlier service, as has the sergeant seated centrally.  I think it’s possibly 3/4th Battalion, who moved back to Kent from Berkshire in May 1915, and in July 1916 were near Canterbury.  Embarked for France in June 1917, from July to August of that year they became the pioneer battalion for 17th Infantry Division.  They were the only battalion of the Royal West Kent’s noted as serving as pioneers, albeit for a very short period.

NB.  However, the central sergeant has at least four overseas service stripes which as David pointed out suggests a photo later in the war after 3/4th had deployed.

Edited 8 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[mancpal]

The width of the medal ribbons in comparison to the width of breast pocket indicates 2 ribbons in each case.

I can’t make them out but QSA and KSA must be candidates, perhaps a territorial ribbon being another thought ? At a stretch a gallantry medal combined with one of the above maybe?

QSA and KSA would be my guess,

Simon

Further thought, could this be a post war photo showing WW1 ribbons. Certainly the overseas chevrons indicate late war at the earliest.

Edited 8 May , 2022 by mancpal

[FrancesH]

Thank you all! I particularly like the friendly way the man at centre back has his hands on the sergeant's shoulders: there's a relaxed air to the whole group. The tool held at centre left certainly looks like a specialised item, perhaps someone can suggest what it was used for?

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, FrancesH said:

Thank you all! I particularly like the friendly way the man at centre back has his hands on the sergeant's shoulders: there's a relaxed air to the whole group. The tool held at centre left certainly looks like a specialised item, perhaps someone can suggest what it was used for?

If you mean the seated man far left he appears to have a sledge hammer.  These were issued as trench stores for driving into the ground pickets and angle iron stakes for the erection of perimeter fencing, or barbed wire entanglements.  They usually came with another device that had a ring at one end to hold the stake steady without endangering hands.

Edited 9 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FrancesH]

I suppose you're right and it is a sledge hammer -- I was wondering if it was something with a flatter head? But a sledge hammer sounds more likely. Thank you!

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, FrancesH said:

I suppose you're right and it is a sledge hammer -- I was wondering if it was something with a flatter head? But a sledge hammer sounds more likely. Thank you!

It appears to be a blacksmith type, but military issue 10lb straight pein sledgehammer.

Edited 9 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FrancesH]

Yes! It's exactly that. I was thinking sledge hammers were round in silhouette. My mistake!

[CorporalPunishment]

The sergeant at centre is wearing the ribbons of the British War Medal and the Victory Medal which dates the photo to post-September 1919.     Pete.

[FrancesH]

On 09/05/2022 at 19:36, CorporalPunishment said:

The sergeant at centre is wearing the ribbons of the British War Medal and the Victory Medal which dates the photo to post-September 1919.     Pete.

That's very interesting! I hadn't expected it to be a post-war picture. I wonder what they were doing? 

[healdav]

On 09/05/2022 at 12:21, FROGSMILE said:

It appears to be a blacksmith type, but military issue 10lb straight pein sledgehammer.

I have an army surplus hammer of exactly this type. It weighs around 3 lb. My father who bought it this many years ago - I remember it in the late 1950s always said that when he was a boliermaker he knew someone who wielde a hammer of twice the weight!

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, healdav said:

I have an army surplus hammer of exactly this type. It weighs around 3 lb. My father who bought it this many years ago - I remember it in the late 1950s always said that when he was a boliermaker he knew someone who wielde a hammer of twice the weight!

The one in the photo is a 10lb sledge hammer Dave, so if yours is just 3lb I suspect it’s a smaller one handed tool? 

[butler]

On the ground in front is a shovel laid down and a set square laid against it. There is also another woodworking tool laid on the shovel. I don't know its name but its used to scribe a line to cut to at a set distance from an edge. 

Are they the Pioneer Section of an infantry battalion, or do the tools relate to their civilian trades, or are the tools there as a joke, the meaning of which is lost in time?

[FROGSMILE]

14 hours ago, butler said:

On the ground in front is a shovel laid down and a set square laid against it. There is also another woodworking tool laid on the shovel. I don't know its name but its used to scribe a line to cut to at a set distance from an edge. 

Are they the Pioneer Section of an infantry battalion, or do the tools relate to their civilian trades, or are the tools there as a joke, the meaning of which is lost in time?

I believe they are the pioneer section** of their particular infantry battalion.  All the tools shown were on the section’s inventory.  The front centre man is pointedly making an allegory by holding two axes crossed, just as in the long standing trade badge of infantry pioneers.  Seated behind him and centrally positioned is the SNCO i/c - the Pioneer Sergeant.

**Typically a sergeant and eight men (one per company under the old 8-company organisation, but then two each for 4-companies after 1912).

Edited 13 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, butler said:

On the ground in front is a shovel laid down and a set square laid against it. There is also another woodworking tool laid on the shovel. I don't know its name but its used to scribe a line to cut to at a set distance from an edge. 

Are they the Pioneer Section of an infantry battalion, or do the tools relate to their civilian trades, or are the tools there as a joke, the meaning of which is lost in time?

A carpenters gauge I believe is the name you are looking for butler. Used as you say. The same with the square. Both very useful tools in a clean workshop or in a muddy field, for precise measuring or 'about it that will do' measuring. It looks like belt and braces are worn by the soldier holding the sledge hammer left middle row.

Edited 12 May , 2022 by Bob Davies

[healdav]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The one in the photo is a 10lb sledge hammer Dave, so if yours is just 3lb I suspect it’s a smaller one handed tool? 

I've just cleaned off the rust from the hammer. It actually weighs 7 lb and is marked as 1941 (I think, the last digit is very blurred).

Wielding mine in a controlled way is rather an effort after two or three swings, so 10 lb!

Edited 13 May , 2022 by healdav

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, healdav said:

I've just cleaned off the rust from the hammer. It actually weighs 7 lb and is marked as 1941 (I think, the last digit is very blurred).

That’s a bit more like it 👍

[Interested]

9 hours ago, Bob Davies said:

A carpenters gauge I believe is the name you are looking for

We were taught that they were Marking Gauges, but hey ho....

In the toolbox I also have a Mortice Gauge which has two pins, for marking parallel lines.

I'm sure you need to know this.....

[RedCoat]

I suspect this group of men may have come from a land down under?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, RedCoat said:

I suspect this group of men may have come from a land down under?

Why do you think that?  Their cap badges are Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment.

Edited 13 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[jay dubaya]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Why do you think that?  Their cap badges are Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment.

Men at Work... an 80s Australian band know for their global hit ‘Down Under’

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Men at Work... an 80s Australian band know for their global hit ‘Down Under’

Thanks Jay, flew right over my head I’m afraid.  I’m a ne’er do well in the pop culture section of any pub quiz….

Edited 13 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[RedCoat]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks Jay, flew right over my head I’m afraid.  I’m a ne’er do well in the pop culture section of any pub quiz….

Sorry chaps, I couldn't resist. Men at Work are still a household name here, in the UK probably not so much!

[jay dubaya]

39 minutes ago, RedCoat said:

Sorry chaps, I couldn't resist. Men at Work are still a household name here, in the UK probably not so much!

He just smiled and gave me a vegemite sandwich... it’s still regularly played over here