Men at Work

[FrancesH]

Delighted to see that there is not only a lot of valuable tool identification going on here but also unexpected pop culture reference!

It may be an idiot question but what would an infantry battalion's pioneer section be doing in 1919? 

Frogsmile, I really like the idea of the recreation of the badge with the tools. That definitely must be the reason for them being crossed in that way.

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, FrancesH said:

Delighted to see that there is not only a lot of valuable tool identification going on here but also unexpected pop culture reference!

It may be an idiot question but what would an infantry battalion's pioneer section be doing in 1919? 

Frogsmile, I really like the idea of the recreation of the badge with the tools. That definitely must be the reason for them being crossed in that way.

 

Every infantry battalion was (and still is as far as I know) established for a pioneer section.  They were the commanding officers own small section of handymen who could be used in a variety of ways.  In an infantry brigade of 4-battalions they could be combined into a work group of 32 plus 4 experienced SNCOs to assist in creating infrastructure for an encampment (washstands, water towers, etc.), but more commonly they did work for their own battalions.  For example in dugouts they could construct shoring to support the roof, fashion officers wooden bunks, create rudimentary cupboards and shelving, etc. as well as the ubiquitous washstands.  In addition they had men capable of painting and could also assist with water supply.  In the days when scarlet uniform was worn in the field they wore a distinctive protective apron to protect it.  Their origin lies in Napoleon’s armies, and their utility was admired and soon copied by the British.  The two-handed felling axe has always been their preeminent emblem of identification.

NB.  This role is entirely different to the discrete “pioneer battalions” discussed early on in the thread.

Edited 13 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

5 hours ago, healdav said:

I've just cleaned off the rust from the hammer. It actually weighs 7 lb and is marked as 1941 (I think, the last digit is very blurred).

Wielding mine in a controlled way is rather an effort after two or three swings, so 10 lb!

Good to know what it was designed to be used for, I have a 18 lb of the same pattern at work, when that fails to drive a stake home, I have a 28 lb as backup. 

[Bob Davies]

6 hours ago, Interested said:

We were taught that they were Marking Gauges, but hey ho....

In the toolbox I also have a Mortice Gauge which has two pins, for marking parallel lines.

I'm sure you need to know this.....

'Marking Gauges' works for me. I do need to know that Never seen one with two pins but it makes total scene when marking out mortises for locks or joints! I wonder what they are called Down Under! ***

[healdav]

19 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Good to know what it was designed to be used for, I have a 18 lb of the same pattern at work, when that fails to drive a stake home, I have a 28 lb as backup. 

I'm not sure I could lift a 28 lb!

 

[squirrel]

22 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

He just smiled and gave me a vegemite sandwich... it’s still regularly played over here 

How sad...

[FrancesH]

Hi Frogsmile and other contributors to this thread, just got back from holiday (first time abroad since the 'Before Times').

 

Frogsmile, thank you so much for a stunning range of 'pioneer' photographs. I did not know that they were/are a regular feature of infantry battalions. It's so obviously a useful thing to have that I'm embarrassed I haven't come across it before. The evident pride taken in their role is very evident in the photographs. 

[FROGSMILE]

On 21/05/2022 at 12:06, FrancesH said:

Hi Frogsmile and other contributors to this thread, just got back from holiday (first time abroad since the 'Before Times').

 

Frogsmile, thank you so much for a stunning range of 'pioneer' photographs. I did not know that they were/are a regular feature of infantry battalions. It's so obviously a useful thing to have that I'm embarrassed I haven't come across it before. The evident pride taken in their role is very evident in the photographs. 

I’m pleased to have helped a little Frances.  Their stalwart leader, the battalion ‘Pioneer Sergeant’, had for centuries been famed for his special beard, and apart from members of the Royal Family was the only appointee in the Army permitted to grow one (although they had to shave after 1916 until the end of the war to fit respirators).  Nowadays that distinction is no longer unique, as various religious groups such as Sikhs and now (recently) Rastafarian’s, may also wear a beard.  A sign of changing times.  In any case you will understand that he was selected and appointed on the basis of being a highly competent handyman who could turn his hand to most things and organise his section of men to carry out all manner of tasks useful to his battalion.

NB.  In a regular infantry battalion of those times there were four workshops (invariably shortened to just ‘shops’) each headed by a sergeant on the ‘battalion (HQ) staff’ - ergo collectively ‘staff sergeants’.  The oldest was the Armourer’s Shop (formally established circa 1803, but actually existing from well before then).   The remaining three were the Pioneers Shop (note contemporary sign in initial photo above), the Tailor’s Shop and the Shoemaker’s Shop (commonly known across the Army as the Snobs - they mainly repaired the men’s boots). 

Edited 23 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FrancesH]

Thank you again, and another great photograph!

Nothing to do with the topic, but what about regimental bands? Did each battalion have its own musicians, too? My great great grandfather John Saunders was a bugle-major in the Gloucesters and as I understand it, this was a permanent position and required him to provide training for new musicians. I don't know whether he would have been attached to a specific battalion,though? 

[FROGSMILE]

On 24/05/2022 at 15:24, FrancesH said:

Thank you again, and another great photograph!

Nothing to do with the topic, but what about regimental bands? Did each battalion have its own musicians, too? My great great grandfather John Saunders was a bugle-major in the Gloucesters and as I understand it, this was a permanent position and required him to provide training for new musicians. I don't know whether he would have been attached to a specific battalion,though? 

Yes, each regular infantry battalion** had a band, and a separate (and historically older) corps of drums or bugles (the latter if a rifles or light infantry battalion).  The bands had interesting origins whose legacy was enduring in the sense that they were initially entirely funded by the regimental colonel, sometimes supported by a levy upon the officers, which latter became increasingly important so that there was a culture that they belonged to the regiment rather than the war office (i.e. government).  They were considered the battalion’s ‘front of house’ and represented the social tone and martial appearance that the colonel wished to present.  This aspect required a talented musical leader and, as the origins lay in envious British eyes cast on foreign military bands (French, Austrian and Italian in particular), it is to the continental Europeans that colonels looked to find their ‘band-masters’, and until the turn of the 20th century very few were British.  None of the bandsmen were trained as soldiers, they were entirely employed on the basis of musical ability, although they were found useful for carrying litters off the battlefield and that later evolved to become the rendering of basic first aid and stretcher bearing.

The corps of drums were an entirely separate affair, with different origins, and fully trained soldiers who also learned to beat drum, pipe flute and [later] sound bugle.  Their leader was a senior sergeant appointed as the drum-major.  As a battalion headquarters functionary he was included in the ‘staff sergeants’ mentioned earlier and originally had two important roles.  Firstly he was the principal drummer and responsible to the colonel commanding the battalion for training his men (and boys) to convey tactical orders by beat of drum, as well as taking messages to the enemy as an envoy when deemed necessary.  In short he was the communicator in chief.  His second role was to organise the delivery of corporal punishment, which along with his drummers he would render with a cat of nine tails.  He trained his drummers, who were divided for daily administration between the companies, but attended routine practice centrally.  His equivalent in the rifles and LI was a bugle-major along with his bugles.  By WW1 of course things had evolved, and the role was less important given that new methods of communication were in use and continuous technological development constantly underway.  Nevertheless, he played a central role in the day-to-day management of the battalion routine in peacetime, not least via a series of simple, short bugle calls that conveyed activity to be carried out.  Once delivered by drum, the introduction of the bugle, which sound had carried further than a drum in battle, had led to its universal use within the infantry to order the routine.  You can listen to the bugle calls here: http://www.farmersboys.com/MAIN/Bugles_Calls.htm

NB.  Scot’s and Irish battalions had an additional musical element comprising some bagpipers (pipes for short) and they were used in lieu of buglers to order the day in those regiments.  They were headed by a pipe-major.

In all regiments the requirements of ceremonial were delivered by a combination of all these musical accompaniments, sometimes in separate sets, but where the tone was compatible them together in one combined array of swash, buckle and sound. The sequence on parade was commonly drums and pipes at the front, representing their chronological seniority, followed by the separate body of the band.  There was invariably a small contingent of boys between the ages 14 and 17, in both, band and drums.

**Territorial force units generally tried to emulate their regular counterparts and most had raised bands and corps of drums (plus pipes if appropriate) by the time of WW1. 

Edited 26 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FrancesH]

Hi Frogsmile, that's amazing! thank you once again so much. Listening to the bugle calls reminded me of Morse codes -- I'm sure young soldiers must have found it very bewildering at first. My ancestor John was working in London as a 'musician' prior to suddenly turning up in Gloucester as bugle-major, so would have lacked military experience. Clearly just as you say he would have been hired for his musical expertise. As I read it, drums continued to take priority over bugles as the older corps?

I have seen mention in war diaries of battalion bands giving concerts, so clearly they went out to the Western Front. By this time were they performing the medical activities you mention? And were they still administering punishments? This was obviously after my ancestor's time, just interested!

Thank you again for ALL your help.

 

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, FrancesH said:

Hi Frogsmile, that's amazing! thank you once again so much. Listening to the bugle calls reminded me of Morse codes -- I'm sure young soldiers must have found it very bewildering at first. My ancestor John was working in London as a 'musician' prior to suddenly turning up in Gloucester as bugle-major, so would have lacked military experience. Clearly just as you say he would have been hired for his musical expertise. As I read it, drums continued to take priority over bugles as the older corps?

I have seen mention in war diaries of battalion bands giving concerts, so clearly they went out to the Western Front. By this time were they performing the medical activities you mention? And were they still administering punishments? This was obviously after my ancestor's time, just interested!

Thank you again for ALL your help.

 

Infantry battalions mostly had either, drums or bugles, depending on whether they were conventional infantry, or rifles / light infantry.  Positions on massed ceremonial parade were dictated by the precedence (seniority) of the regiment itself, but within those bounds yes a corps of drums took precedence historically over a corps of bugles.  A very few regiments that had been formed via a wholesale reform of infantry in 1881 by merging two single battalion regiments with different lineages maintained both a corps of drums (one battalion) AND a corps of bugles (other battalion) but that was an uncommon idiosyncrasy. 

Auxiliary infantry battalions that were reinforced (via recruitment) from scratch in wartime might well take on a former musician as bugle-major.  Although second fiddle to the battalion’s band, the bugles held great sway because they signified the light infantry / rifles regimental spirit and ethos.

Regular band concerts were part and parcel of regimental band life and seen both at the front and at home.  When a battalion marched a distance to move from one area to another away from the front line it was generally led by the band and drums / bugles who would separately take turn to play music keeping up the tempo/cadence and morale on the march, whilst each resting in turn.  Once in the line they generally kept separate routines, but joined together when ordered. 

The drum-majors responsibility for administering punishment was phased out by the end of the 20th century.  Early in the war (1914-15) the bands lost a lot of musicians kia or wounded whilst acting as stretcher bearers and it was realised that they were more valuable raising morale, so their role as stretcher bearers was largely replaced by dedicated men specially trained for that physically exhausting and arduous role.

NB.  The morse code analogy is quite a good one.  The bugle calls were kept as short as possible but distinctive.  A bugle, which had no valves, was limited to a certain number of notes.  Most calls were remembered via an associated rhyme that the soldiers memorised.  Perhaps the most famous was: “come to the cookhouse door boys, come to the cookhouse door” (dinner call). Each call was preceded by the also short, battalion call (as identification), when units were brigaded and collocated in the same camp.  Mounted duty units had trumpeters instead of buglers but uniquely carried both those instruments, using the bugle when mounted as it was easier to sound, but the trumpet when on foot as it carried further.  Qualified practitioners of the three principal instruments wore brass or cloth badges in the latter’s representative shape.  Rifles had doubled bugles and bandsmen a lyre.

 

 

Edited 26 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FrancesH]

All those musicians look genuinely proud of their instruments and their role, and I am sure they were! Another evocative set of photographs. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge, it is really appreciated.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, FrancesH said:

All those musicians look genuinely proud of their instruments and their role, and I am sure they were! Another evocative set of photographs. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge, it is really appreciated.

I’m glad to help Frances, it is always rewarding when one senses genuine interest as in your case, and there is very little knowledge of British military traditions in contemporary Britain. Anything that I can do to improve that is my motive.

NB.  The mounted soldier above has his trumpet slung across his back and his bugle suspended on his right side (out of sight) as was convention.  One of the drummers pictured is from a light infantry regiment (DLI) so he wears a bugler badge on his right arm but has been nominated to do duty that day as a drummer.  

Edited 26 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE