BURIALS of 'UNKNOWN' in the UNITED KINGDOM

[Mark in Staffs]

Whilst looking into civilian deaths at sea I found a newspaper report of a trawler bringing up in its nets the body of a fellow trawlerman who's been killed when his fishing boat was sunk by a mine. They made a note of his features and tattoos etc and these were used to identify him. But there was no mention of them bringing his body back. Was it general practice for such a body to be returned to the sea? I thought they might have brought him ashore for a decent burial, he was obviously not too badly decomposed, his boat had only gone missing a few days earlier.

[Matlock1418]

39 minutes ago, Mark in Staffs said:

Whilst looking into civilian deaths at sea I found a newspaper report of a trawler bringing up in its nets the body of a fellow trawlerman who's been killed when his fishing boat was sunk by a mine. They made a note of his features and tattoos etc and these were used to identify him. But there was no mention of them bringing his body back. Was it general practice for such a body to be returned to the sea? I thought they might have brought him ashore for a decent burial, he was obviously not too badly decomposed, his boat had only gone missing a few days earlier.

We don't know that they didn't bring his body back.

I don't know for all seamen, but burial at sea seems to have been a time-honoured practice and considered a decent/not considered a non-decent burial for many.

Thinking about civilian fishermen then one has to consider a) the potential possibility/practicality of keeping a decomposing body on board for any length of time and b) the financial cost - both of loss of space for catch and loss of catch if an early return.

Sure on a deep-sea trawler then they may have ice on board but that would have been for the fish catch.  Early return would have likely been an even larger financial cost, especially for a larger trawler [c/w coastal fishing] likely incurring the significant wrath of fhe owner - and fishermen and their families have to eat, pay being a financial share of the catch [x% of nothing = nothing ... hard to feed a family on that]. 

Seamen/fishermen are fairly practical and pragmatic folks, nowadays and I would think similarly before.

I have no knowledge of the legal side of things - or what a Coronor might have had to say [then or now] about returning a body to the sea but at least they seem to have made a reasonable attempt at identifying him in that case.

Would be pleased to learn more on the subject.

M

Edited 28 March by Matlock1418
omission

[Mark in Staffs]

I can't find any record of a burial ashore and he is not listed on the GRO register for deaths in 1915. The newspaper reports state the body was located but no mention anywhere of it being brought ashore. His trawler disappeared between 23 and 31 January and the skipper of the vessel that found him in his nets made the report on returning to port on 8 February.  

He came from Lowestoft but the vessel that found him docked in Grimsby.

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, Mark in Staffs said:

I can't find any record of a burial ashore and he is not listed on the GRO register for deaths in 1915.

Like you I might suspect a return to the sea.

I am more surprised by the lack of finding his Death Registration - might have expected an earlier Coronor's report too [harder to find] - rather more so than I am about not finding a burial record [even had his body been returned to shore - Being returned away from home would likely have incurred a pauper's burial in an unmarked common grave plot since transport home was not always that possible given family circumstances - not like the military who would actually pay for a last rail journey to the home town's railways station for the family to then bury - though that final bit was at the family's expense and potentially beyond the family's means - so many lads buried were far from home in the UK at the Nation's expense instead].

M

[Mark in Staffs]

I'm using FreeBMD so perhaps they don't have full access to every record. I'm also finding that civilians who were lost at sea rarely feature on the death indexes, unless there's a separate one for missing presumed dead I haven't found yet. 

[Matlock1418]

7 minutes ago, Mark in Staffs said:

I'm using FreeBMD so perhaps they don't have full access to every record. I'm also finding that civilians who were lost at sea rarely feature on the death indexes, unless there's a separate one for missing presumed dead I haven't found yet. 

Have you tried GRO? https://www.gro.gov.uk - with a name and year it shouldn't be too hard [one might hope!!]

M

Edited 28 March by Matlock1418
add

[observer]

The loss of USSCG Tampa 1918

https://www.history.uscg.mil/tampa/#:~:text=On 26 September 1918%2C having,in just under three minutes.

[Matlock1418]

10 hours ago, observer said:

The loss of USSCG Tampa 1918

https://www.history.uscg.mil/tampa/#:~:text=On 26 September 1918%2C having,in just under three minutes.

Thank you for your contibution - as you have seemingly identified, there is an 'Unknown' from the USCGC "Tampa".

LAMPHEY (ST. TYFEI) CHURCHYARD, Pembrokeshire, United Kingdom

Foreign National (1914-1918)

Sailor. U.S.S. Coast Guard Cutter "Tampa", U.S. Coast Guard. 26 September 1918. Grave Reference: North of Church

Slightly puzzled by the fact that though his body was recovered this casualty wasn't then repatriated to the US - I suppose potentially because he was an 'Unknown' and/or Coast Guard sailor or ???  Seemingly likely far from home may he RIP 

M

Edited 29 March by Matlock1418

[observer]

Possibly because he had no identification besides being a US Sailor......

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, observer said:

Possibly because he had no identification besides being a US Sailor......

Yes probably - and thus nobody known to welcome him home to the US.

M

[TullochArd]

On 08/09/2022 at 19:10, Matlock1418 said:

JW - thank you for your very comprehensive post above - obviously drawing on your local knowledge. Always a puzzle as to how these matters were addressed 100 yeas ago.  CWGC don't seem to offer much.

There are similar

FALMOUTH CEMETERY, CORNWALL, Cornwall, United Kingdom

Commonwealth War Dead (1914-1918)

, Fireman. Mercantile Marine. 5 November 1917. Grave Reference: L. C. 45

, Fireman. Mercantile Marine. 5 November 1917. Grave Reference: L. F. 49

 

As I believe the SS "Clan Cumming" was salvaged after torpedo damage lead to a tow and beaching at Falmouth it seems likely that though the exact identities of these men was not possible there was good provenance - I would suggest their bodies were likely found in the engineroom leading to the ranks provided in these cases.  I have not seen any I/CWGC papers.

Would have been much harder if they had been washed ashore

M

The IWGC records show five Indian Merchant Service casualties from SS Clan Cumming (5 Nov 1917) as buried in Falmouth Cemetery.  The three identified casualties were Fireman Dost Muhammad Nur (LD 49), Fireman Qasim (LE 45) and 1st Tindal (Chief Petty Officer) Hatimullah Hedatullah (LC 49) - whose headstone is shown below. 

The two SS Clan Cumming (5 Nov 1917) unknowns (LC45 and LF49).  Trimmer Himmatullah Sabir Muhammad and Oilman Sarwahtullah Asir Muhammad.  are commemorated on a single Special Memorial as "Buried elsewhere in this cemetery".  This stone was ordered in February 1999 and erected in March 2000.   

The other 8 (of 13) casualties from that attack are apparently recorded on the Bombay Memorial.  

 

 

Edited 29 March by TullochArd

[Matlock1418]

6 hours ago, TullochArd said:

The CWGC records currently show three Indian Merchant Service casualties from SS Clan Cumming (5 Nov 1917) as buried in Falmouth Cemetery.  The three are named as Fireman Dost Muhammad Nur (LD 49), and Fireman Qasim (LE 45) and First Tindal (Chief Petty Officer) Hatimullah Hedatullah (LC 49) who headstone is shown below. 

It's been a good while since I last looked at the "Clan Cumming" 

The December 1917 and  January 1918 Burial Registers for Falmouth Cemetery records a number of burials from ship [including bodies recovered from At sea onboard / Onboard SS "Clan Cumming" - after she had been beached I would suggest].

The other four named Indian Merchant Service  seamen casualties at Falmouth from the "Clan Cumming"

M

 

Edited 29 March by Matlock1418
Indian Merchant Service

[TullochArd]

4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

It's been a good while since I last looked at the "Clan Cumming" 

The January 1918 Burial Register for Falmouth Cemetery records a number of burials from ship [including bodies recovered from Onboard SS "Clan Cumming", after she had been beached I would suggest].

The other named casualties at Falmouth from the "Clan Cumming"

M

 

That's the five - all named.  Well done CWGC......and their "helpers" 

[Matlock1418]

9 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

That's the five - all named. 

Plus two 'Unknown', see my earlier post

M

[jay dubaya]

I'm a few miles down the road from the unknown Tampa sailor. He and another were found by Mary Brace (nee Reynolds) after they washed ashore at Freshwater East on 4th November 1918, Seaman James Marconnier Fleury was identified and repatriated by his family. The unknown was buried in Lamphey Churchyard where Mary cared for the grave into the 1960s. In 1924 a young boy scouting the beach at Porthcawl came across a length of timber with a brass plate attached 'US Coastguard Boat No. 718'. The plate was identified as belonging to one of Tampa's lifeboats and now hangs in the US Coastguard HQ, Washington.

[Matlock1418]

"Clan Cumming" burials at Falmouth Cemetery = 8 entries

This 13/45 entry continues to intrigue me - named, but where is he commemorated? Who is this?

This 13/56 entry continues to intrigue me - named, but where is he commemorated?  I think potentially as Qasim

Images thanks to Falmouth Cemetery, Burial Registers 12 & 13

M

Edited 29 March by Matlock1418
accreditation

[Matlock1418]

20 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

I'm a few miles down the road from the unknown Tampa sailor. He and another were found by Mary Brace (nee Reynolds) after they washed ashore at Freshwater East on 4th November 1918, Seaman James Marconnier Fleury was identified and repatriated by his family. The unknown was buried in Lamphey Churchyard where Mary cared for the grave into the 1960s. In 1924 a young boy scouting the beach at Porthcawl came across a length of timber with a brass plate attached 'US Coastguard Boat No. 718'. The plate was identified as belonging to one of Tampa's lifeboats and now hangs in the US Coastguard HQ, Washington.

Thank JW

Thought you might again appear here given your locale. 

M

[PaulC78]

13/45 looks like Qasim to me.

EDIT: Or not? It does look like a cursive "Q", but if Cassim = Qasim then you're probably right.

Edited 29 March by PaulC78

[Matlock1418]

Just now, PaulC78 said:

13/45 looks like Qasim to me.

Agreed 13/45 does look like QASIM but in in grave L.?.47

There is the query about 13/56 ... Different grave L.e.45 ... and CWGC have QASIM in L.e.45

Has puzzled me for a while now

M

[Matlock1418]

29 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

L.?.47

For 13/45 is that L.f.47 or ???

Since I did my earlier research following a photographic sortie to Falmouth Cememtery in Dec 2017 there may perhaps have been some changes at CWGC and at the Cemetery???

I note at CWGC there is now:

TAKAKE K 38 22/12/1917 Fireman and Trimmer Mercantile Marine H.M.T. "Hunsbrook" (London) United Kingdom''United Kingdom FALMOUTH CEMETERY, CORNWALL L.C.47.

And according to Find A Grave it looks like a brand new headstone in situ [I don't think I would have missed it??]

So perhaps ?? Edit: I think not, having looked again, TATAKE has a separate BR entry as 13/47

I'm still puzzling.

M

Edited 29 March by Matlock1418
edit

[TullochArd]

On 29/03/2024 at 20:15, Matlock1418 said:

Plus two 'Unknown', see my earlier post

M

13 seems to be the consensus for the SS Clan Cumming death toll.  4th Engr Charles Maitland (buried Greenock) and 12 IMS sailors  The 12 are named on the attached GR document.

It looks like phonetics/sounds like are at play on the entries on the Falmouth Register.  From your list in the Falmouth Cemetery we have:

• L.e.53  looks like 'Soriotulla' but could refer to Sarwahtullah as in Oilman Sarwahtullah Asir Muhammad known to be buried in this cemetery. 
• L.f.49  "Male (Unknown)" on CWGC headstone as Fireman (Unknown)
• L.d.49 Known grave Fireman Dost Muhammad Nur 
• L.c.49  Known grave 1st Tindal Hatimullah Hedatullah
• L.d.57 "A Male" why is this one not recorded as "Male (Unknown)" like the other two "Male Unknown"?  I reckon "A. Male" is a misheard reference to A. Ale as in Ale Ali (Muslims place the forename last which regularly bamboozles Europeans).  n.b. however if this is not A. Ale/Ale Ali then it is a third, and seemingly unrecorded, unknown. 
• L.f.67  looks like 'Hosmululla' could refer to Himmatullah as in Trimmer Himmatullah Sabir Muhammad known to be buried in this cemetery.
• L.e.45 Known grave Fireman Qasim.  Qasim is recorded as Ali Qasim on Bombay Memorial (below).  I read the handwritten entry on Falmouth Register as "Ali (x) Cussim"  
• L.c.45 "Male (Unknown)" on CWGC headstone as Fireman (Unknown)

Trimmer Himmatullah Sabir Muhammad and Oilman Sarwahtullah Asir Muhammad are on the new Spec.Mem "buried elsewhere in this cemetery" but seems likely in L.f.67 and L.e.53. 

That's five identified graves  and two unknowns.  That's seven so by my reckoning we are one short of the eight names on the Cemetery Register.  I suspect the CWGC came to the same conclusion in 1999 - please see the handwritten entry below indicating discussions as to an additional unknown being added/then not added to the new Spec.Mem erected in 2000.

There should be three "unknowns" not two.  The third missing "unknown" grave seems to be L.d.57.

In this case I'd also question the Christian Cross on the two unknowns grave. Based upon the clear evidence we have here it seems most unlikely they were Christians.   

Regarding your earlier question I read 13/45 as L.f.47 as the same as I read 13/34 as L.f.49

 

Edited 1 April by TullochArd