James Turnbull b. 1897 and his award of DCM in WW1

[Ivor Anderson]

Re:  The Scotsman on 13th Oct 1915.

Walker's register of DCMs 1914-1920 has NO Turnbull's listed for a DCM for any Bn. of the Royal Scots, never mind the 2nd Bn..

Nor the Royal Scots Fusiliers. No James Turnbulls got an MM with the Royal Scots either.

 

 

 

Edited 31 March , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[PRC]

47 minutes ago, Cuillodge said:

Just found this. Its him.              

So is this the tunneller or someone else completely different? In the extracts and medal rolls posted so far I can see the Tunneller served with 3/8th and 1/9th Royal Scots, but no reference to the 2nd Battalion. Is there something hidden away in that service record?

A run through the MiC's in the National Archive catalogue for a James or J Turnbull serving with the Royal Scots doesn't bring up any D.C.M. cards so no alternative candidate there.

The Medal Index Card for the Tunneller doesn't even show him going out to France until the 13th October 1915 - the same date as the newspaper. It's also noted that he was discharged to Class Z on the 23rd May 1919 which would be after his wedding. (He would have been on discharge leave for 28 days before that).

Confused  - if he could add 6 years to his age may he also have awarded himself a gallantry medal as well.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 31 March , 2022 by PRC
Typo

[roughdiamond]

8 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Re:  The Scotsman on 13th Oct 1915.

Walker's register of DCMs 1914-1920 has no Turnbull's listed for a DCM for any Bn. of the Royal Scots, never mind the 2nd Bn..

Nor the Royal Scots Fusiliers.

 

 

 

Ivor

He's pointing out that in October 1915 he was wounded serving with the Royal Scots, it seems to rule out James M Turnbull RAMC, Royal Scots and RE as his Date of Entry is 13/10/15, the same date as the quoted article, so his James born 1897 has enlisted under age, has been wounded previously and by 13th October is in Brighton.

 

Sam

[Ivor Anderson]

29 minutes ago, roughdiamond said:

He's pointing out that in October 1915 he was wounded serving with the Royal Scots, it seems to rule out James M Turnbull RAMC, Royal Scots and RE as his Date of Entry is 13/10/15, the same date as the quoted article, so his James born 1897 has enlisted under age, has been wounded previously and by 13th October is in Brighton.

 

Yes, but no James Turnbull got a DCM with the Royal Scots in WW1 and he was too young for South Africa 1901-02.

Both these James Turnbulls (11371 and 11465) entered France in 1914 with 2nd Bn. Royal Scots and were discharged (Ancestry image):

Edited 31 March , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[roughdiamond]

Saw those 2 x 2nd Bn men Ivor, both appear to be pre-War regulars as Paul Nixon's site shows 11089 enlisted 20th June 1914 and one was discharged prior to the report of hospitalisation, added to that James would've been 17 on their date of entry.

Sam

[Cuillodge]

The mystery deepens. I will have a look at the newspaper further tomorrow. See if I can see anymore

[PRC]

24 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Both these James Turnbulls (11371 and 11465) entered France in 1914 with 2nd Bn. Royal Scots and were discharged

11465 may have been discharged from the Royal Scots in August 1916, (so potential for being wounded twice by October 1915), but his MiC shows him with an Army Service Corps service number - MR/47852 - and his Victory Medal and British War Medal were issued by the Army Service Corps. Could have been a post-war enlistment or a medical board found him fit for service under the wartime conscription regulations and the ever lowering standards of physical fitness as the country began to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

We also don't know why he was discharged - if it was actually to Army Reserve P rather than because he was no longer physically fit for military service then he may have been recalled for all kinds of reasons.

No sign of a DCM award however.

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

Thought it rang a bell - there was a thread at the start of the year about Army Service Corps men with the MR prefix. Forum consensus seems to be that it relates to service in Russia and is most likely from 1919.

So unlikely that soldier won the D.C.M. between re-joining the Army and the marriage of James Turnbull in May 1919 or that he was even in the country at the time of marriage. That assumes of course he didn't have other service prior to that A.S.C. number being issued.

Cheers,
Peter

[roughdiamond]

12 hours ago, Cuillodge said:

Just found this. Its him.              

some thoughts on this newspaper report, James Turnbull's parents address is given as 45 Balcarres Street, the OP states the family address was 42 Balcarres Street, could this be a Cousin who was likely 11465 James Turnbull 2nd Bn Royal Scots who arrived in France 11th August 1914 (3 days ahead of the bulk of the 2nd Bn according to the Long Long Trail) suggesting he's a pre-War Regular? Worth checking the 1911 Census return to see if there were Turnbull's at No45.

 

If it's an error in the address and he is the OP's ancestor, that man was discharged 11/08/1916 going by Ivor's post of the Medal Roll, he didn't serve with another Regt and as Ivor also points out no Turnbull from either the Royal Scots or Royal Scots Fusiliers was awarded the DCM.

 

Looking at James McKenzie Turnbull DCM, there are Birth entries on Scotland's People for 2 children of that name, both Born 1897, one in St George area and one St Andrews area, both Edinburgh City.

 

TBH at this point I'm leaning towards James' claim on his Marriage cert as holding a DCM as accurate as his age.

 

Sam

[roughdiamond]

21 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

 

James McKenzie Turnbull was 148539 RE, and was a miner living at 191 Gorgie Rd., Edinburgh when he enlisted on 12 March 1916: 

 

The enlistment date doesn't match his Date of Entry on His MIC Ivor, that shows as 13/10/1915 and he shows an entitlement to the 1914/15 Star.

 

Sam

[Ivor Anderson]

That's true Sam. I was going by his later RE enlistment record and date: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1219/images/31239_205137-00379?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=11fd763404b4375c6c286b12b96bf52f&usePUB=true&_phsrc=WWn1573&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=2011336

Alan previously had him correctly summarised: Many pages of his service record held on FMP and Ancestry. A very quick look through shows:

Attested 20 April 1913, Private 3556 (TF) R.A.M.C.T.

Embodied 5 August 1914

Transferred 18 July 1915  1/9 Royal Scots

Transferred 12 March 1916 R.E. 184th Tunnelling Company

There is the likelihood of possible confusion due to similar named cousins or there being two James McKenzie Turnbulls.

The need to pay per view in Scotlandspeople makes it hard to help the OP distinguish between these candidates using BMD & census records etc..

DCM listed in LG 1st Jan 1919: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31092/supplement/45

DCM Citation Sept 1919: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/13495/page/2987

He got the French Medaille d'Honour in LG 14th July 1919 with the RE: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31454/supplement/8963

Edited 1 April , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

The OP's James Turnbull, born in Leith on 12th February 1897 (BC ref.149), is NOT one of the two James McKenzie Turnbulls:

Edited 1 April , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

This 1914-15 Electoral roll confirms that it was Oliver Turnbull (Glazier) living at 45 Balcarres Street at the time of the newspaper cutting about James' wounding:

NO Turnbulls then living at no. 42. They lived at no. 42 1902-1905. Other ERs show the family lived at no. 45 from at least 1905.

The James in the 1915 newspaper report IS James Turnbull b. 12 Feb 1897, who claimed to hold a DCM at his marriage in 1919. His father Oliver d.1936.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1436147:61486?tid=&pid=&queryId=e86e38942e9cd9da792f8a34e238b4d5&_phsrc=WWn1715&_phstart=successSource

Edited 2 April , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Cuillodge]

27 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

This 1914-15 Electoral roll confirms that it was Oliver Turnbull (Glazier) living at 45 Balcarres Street at the time of the newspaper cutting about James' wounding:

NO Turnbulls then living at no. 42. They lived at no. 42 1902-1905. Other ERs show the family lived at no. 45 from at least 1905.

The James in the report IS James Turnbull b. 12 Feb 1897, who claimed to hold a DCM at his marriage in 1919. His father Oliver d.1936.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1436147:61486?tid=&pid=&queryId=e86e38942e9cd9da792f8a34e238b4d5&_phsrc=WWn1715&_phstart=successSource

20 hours ago, PRC said:

11465 may have been discharged from the Royal Scots in August 1916, (so potential for being wounded twice by October 1915), but his MiC shows him with an Army Service Corps service number - MR/47852 - and his Victory Medal and British War Medal were issued by the Army Service Corps. Could have been a post-war enlistment or a medical board found him fit for service under the wartime conscription regulations and the ever lowering standards of physical fitness as the country began to scrape the bottom of the barrel.

We also don't know why he was discharged - if it was actually to Army Reserve P rather than because he was no longer physically fit for military service then he may have been recalled for all kinds of reasons.

No sign of a DCM award however.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Cuillodge]

Ivor,

I was just going to post this. I have looked at the Electoral Rolls too. As you said the family appear to have initially lived at 42 Balcarres Street, They are there in 1901 census and the Electoral Roll . There is no other Turnbull family on that street. I found them in 1918-19 Electoral Rolls at 27 B Watson Crescent, Edinburgh. This would have been just before James' marriage. His mother was deceased by that time, so I found her death cert. In the roll of 1918-19,  his father is there also two brother who appear to be in the army. James is not. He is a engineer. He was stated to be a heating engineer on his marriage cert. So was out of military service by then.

Nothing more found on Newspaper search.

I seem to have opened a can of worms with this. Never thought it would cause so much research. I'm beginning to think, as someone suggested, the DCM was a figment of his imagination !

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

The OP's James Turnbull, born in Leith on 12th February 1897 (BC ref.149), is NOT one of the two James McKenzie Turnbulls:

Bottom one is our James Turnbull.

[roughdiamond]

Had a look at the SWB roll and 11371 Pte James Turnbull 2nd Bn Royal Scots, discharged 02/05/15 has an entry but, by the look of it 11465 does not and I don't think either has a Pension record.

If the OP's relative was 11465, by the discharge date of 11/08/16, he would've been over the age of 19 so no longer under age. I'd focus on this man, try looking at casualty rolls for him under that number in the newspaper archives to try and match him with the 13th October 1915 report as we now know for certain the latter is your relative.

The lack of SWB or Pension record is a strange one. I should make it clear I didn't look at any record as I don't have an Ancestry membership, I simply searched by Service number and got no matches, that means nothing as everyone knows the notoriety of Ancestry's cataloging.

 

Sam

 

 

Edited 1 April , 2022 by roughdiamond

[Cuillodge]

I think you have looked at this but could he have been attached to another regiment when he was supposedly awarded the DCM ?

[Ivor Anderson]

15 minutes ago, Cuillodge said:

I think you have looked at this but could he have been attached to another regiment when he was supposedly awarded the DCM ?

If someone could find him in the 1914-15 casualty lists we may get a service number for the Royal Scots?

11465 re-enlisted in the RASC in June 1919 and was eventually discharged in August 1919. Both got SWBs?? (Ancestry images)

Edited 1 April , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Cuillodge]

44 minutes ago, roughdiamond said:

Had a look at the SWB roll and 11371 Pte James Turnbull 2nd Bn Royal Scots, discharged 02/05/15 has an entry but, by the look of it 11465 does not and I don't think either has a Pension record.

If the OP's relative was 11465, by the discharge date of 11/08/16, he would've been over the age of 19 so no longer under age. I'd focus on this man, try looking at casualty rolls for him under that number in the newspaper archives to try and match him with the 13th October 1915 report as we now know for certain the latter is your relative.

The lack of SWB or Pension record is a strange one. I should make it clear I didn't look at any record as I don't have an Ancestry membership, I simply searched by Service number and got no matches, that means nothing as everyone knows the notoriety of Ancestry's cataloging.

 

Sam

Found this on Ancestry using 11371

 

Edited 1 April , 2022 by Cuillodge

[PRC]

Apologies - should have added when I looked at the available records for 11465 Royal Scots last night, that FMP have indexed a possible SWB Roll transcription against a "James Larnbell".

And while I don't subscribe to either FMP or Ancestry so can't check out what it actually says, drilling down on what can be publicly searched on Ancestry for a James Larnbell, 11465 Royal Scots brings up what I take to be the same Silver War Badge roll.

Hope that is not a red-herring,

Cheers,
Peter

[roughdiamond]

39 minutes ago, Cuillodge said:

I think you have looked at this but could he have been attached to another regiment when he was supposedly awarded the DCM ?

As Ivor notes in his post 11456 reenlisted after your mans marriage date, might be worth looking at his SWB roll if you have Ancestry, it should give a reason for discharge.

Only one James Turnbull who was awarded the DCM served with the Royal Scots and that was James McKenzie Turnbull who's already been ruled out.

I've seen Royal Scots and Royal Scots Fusiliers being mixed up and Bn's of a Regiment being mixed up, but of the 4 x J. Turnbull's awarded the DCM none match your man, the only other possibility is he served under an alias which is a whole other can of worms although the newspaper report clearly states his name and address.

 

Other than checking the SWB roll for 11456 and the newspaper archive for a casualty list, my only other suggestion is contact other relatives to see if someone has his medals.

 

Sam

[roughdiamond]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

Apologies - should have added when I looked at the available records for 11465 Royal Scots last night, that FMP have indexed a possible SWB Roll transcription against a "James Larnbell".

And while I don't subscribe to either FMP or Ancestry so can't check out what it actually says, drilling down on what can be publicly searched on Ancestry for a James Larnbell, 11465 Royal Scots brings up what I take to be the same Silver War Badge roll.

Hope that is not a red-herring,

Cheers,
Peter

That would explain why I got no match Peter, nice one.

 

Sam

[Ivor Anderson]

Larnbell on Ancestry too - thanks Peter. Discharged 11 August 1916 due to wounds.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/205105:2456?tid=&pid=&queryId=0b466ee7bd06b36f31895c32f25b24ae&_phsrc=WWn1728&_phstart=successSource

If he enlisted 11 April 1913 he would only have been 16. Re-enlisted in the RASC in June 1919 and was eventually discharged in August 1919.

There are also pension cards showing that the same James Turnbull served as 615508 with the Royal Engineers and was discharged 30 Mar/14 April 1920:

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61588&h=159208567&tid=&pid=&queryId=4d06e32f05c593b160e63c1323fd3d30&usePUB=true&_phsrc=WWn1738&_phstart=successSource

The dates fit with him getting married at Edinburgh on 3 May 1919 (joined RASC 7 June 1919 for 2 months), but still NO evidence of any entitlement to the DCM.

He has four pension cards on Ancestry (WFA) that may shed more light re addresses & wife's name that could confirm that he is your man: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/categories/39/?name=_turnbull&keyword=615508&location=3257.3250&name_x=_1&priority=united-kingdom

Edited 2 April , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

There is also a chance that he gets a mention in the Bn. war diary if he was wounded twice by October 1915:

WD 2nd Bn. Royal Scots 1914: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14052981

WD 2nd Bn. Royal Scots 1915: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14052982

There is also the likelihood of his being on the casualty lists in 1915 - on 'Find My Past'/The Times.

Edited 2 April , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

The war diary of 20 February 1915 records a list of awards for 14th December 1914 at Kemmel, including the VC to Henry Howey Robson.

Robson is the only non officer listed. No DCMs are mentioned (MM was not instituted until March 1916).

VC citation in the LG 18 Feb. 1915: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29074/supplement/1700

Three DCMs in the 2nd Royal Scots WD on 23 June 1915. Killed & wounded are listed re numbers but only officers are named.

Edited 2 April , 2022 by Ivor Anderson