James Turnbull b. 1897 and his award of DCM in WW1

[Matlock1418]

12 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

There are also pension cards showing that the same James Turnbull served as 615508 with the Royal Engineers and was discharged 30 Mar/14 April 1920:

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61588&h=159208567&tid=&pid=&queryId=4d06e32f05c593b160e63c1323fd3d30&usePUB=true&_phsrc=WWn1738&_phstart=successSource

The dates fit with him getting married at Edinburgh on 3 May 1919 (joined RASC 7 June 1919 for 2 months), but still NO evidence of any entitlement to the DCM.

He has four pension cards on Ancestry (WFA) that may shed more light re addresses & wife's name that could confirm that he is your man: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/categories/39/?name=_turnbull&keyword=615508&location=3257.3250&name_x=_1&priority=united-kingdom

Those [two different] disability pension ledger index cards for James TURNBULL, 615508, RE give an address of 9 Leith St Terrace, Edinburgh

M

Edited 2 April , 2022 by Matlock1418

[Ivor Anderson]

10 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Those [two different] disability pension ledger index cards for James TURNBULL, 615508, RE give an address of 9 Leith St Terrace, Edinburgh

Excellent. Thanks Matlock. We have our man's military identity. That was his address from his marriage in 1919:

Edited 2 April , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

SUMMARY: Born Leith, 12 Feb 1897

He enlisted as 11465 with the Royal Scots on 11 April 1913 aged only 16 (SWB). In France from 11 August 1914, discharged wounded 11 August 1916 with a SWB.

Re-enlisted in the RASC as 47852 on 7th June 1919 (just after his marriage) and was discharged on 8th  August 1919.

There are several pension cards showing that the same James Turnbull served as 615508 with the Royal Engineers and was discharged 30 Mar/14 April 1920.

His RE service may have been in Russia (BWM & VM Roll) in an engineering capacity? NO sign of any DCM award to him pre his May 1919 wedding.

He would have been present present at the battle at Kemmel in Dec 1914 when Robson won the VC. It is likely that some DCMs were at least recommended.

Perhaps he was recommended for one at some point and it did not get higher level approval?

WD list on 20 Feb 1915 for Dec 1914 at Kemmel. Only officers and the Robson VC get mentioned - I would be surprised if no DCMs were recommended too?

Edited 2 April , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Allan1892]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Those [two different] disability pension ledger index cards for James TURNBULL, 615508, RE give an address of 9 Leith St Terrace, Edinburgh

 

1 hour ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Excellent. Thanks Matlock. We have our man's military identity. That was his address from his marriage in 1919:

M -- well found

Ivor -- I think that you may have come up with with a plausible explanation in that he was recommended for a DCM but he was knocked back.

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

M -- well found

Credit should go to Ivor @Ivor Anderson as he pointed the way!  And had uncovered the Edinburgh address in an very early post to boot!  Nice one(s) Ivor.

M

Edited 2 April , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[Ivor Anderson]

A great collaborative effort produced results. Lots of people contributed, including the OP, in answering questions that helped us locate James.

One unanswered question is what dates was he on the casualty lists in 1914-15 as 11465 Royal Scots. That might help pinpoint actions he may have been recommended a DCM for? It is notable that it was not mentioned in the October 1915 newspaper report re his second wounding.

Edited 2 April , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[PRC]

39 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

One unanswered question is what dates was he on the casualty lists in 1914-15 as 11465 Royal Scots.

Couldn't find anything in FMP newspapers and periodicals, nor the The Times. I tried opening up the criteria to see if I could find the original wounding but still drew a blank.

Looks like the only information about him being wounded comes from a local paper, which in turn would have come from James' family (or friends). While they may have had official notification it's just as likely that the family\friends received the information about the wounding from James himself. So possibly this needs to be treated with an added level of caution.

Of course there is always one more set of search criteria that can be tried. Unfortunately The Royal Scots Museum have currently chosen not to make anything available via the Ogilby Muster but may be worth contacting them directly https://www.theogilbymuster.com/royal_scots_regimental_museum

Cheers,
Peter

[Ivor Anderson]

Thanks Peter. I think we have done all we can. The OP can contact the Regimental Museum using your link. He now knows the service number.

If James lied about his age in 1913 to join up aged 16, and added 6 years at his marriage, then we know that he wasn't always truthful.

He may have believed he was entitled to a DCM! He was definitely discharged due to wounds in August 1916 with a SWB.

Edited 2 April , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

His brother Oliver seems to have served with the Royal Scots too as 275118 & 632349 Labour Corps? Married in Leeds 1920 (Ancestry):

They were living at 16 Marchmont Cres., Edinburgh in the 1927-31 and 69 Temple Park Crescent, Edinburgh in 1939 & 1951.

Edited 2 April , 2022 by Ivor Anderson

[travers61]

On 31/03/2022 at 20:37, Cuillodge said:

I Hope I have done this ok! Birth and Marriage certs. You are correct re ages on marriage cert. I never noticed that. Think there was a bit of story telling going on !

It was fairly common practice then & in later decades (thus not questioned by clergy, registrars etc) that if a man married a lady older than himself either he added to his age or she dropped years off hers.  Seeing both parties as the same age & the lady as a widow is often an indication of this. I presume you now have to provide a birth certificate/passport etc to get married so this can't happen now.

 

Travers

Edited 2 April , 2022 by travers61

[Ivor Anderson]

Thanks Travers. Ages on census & marriage certificates from back then are notoriously unreliable. Taken by itself it was not surprising.

[Cuillodge]

Hello To All 

I would like to thank you all for all your help, expertise, time and patience  in solving the military past of James Turnbull. The DCM question has been elusive but we know far more than I ever expected to find out. You have been diligent in your pursuit of the history of this individual. I can only thank so much. I will check all the posts and will  pull all the info together. Your knowledge of militaria is far more than mine. A special Thanks to Ivor who posted one of his comments at 5am this morning! Amazing! These questions get under your skin and it is a quest to find out the answers and you have all done that for me. I would doubt if I will find anymore but if I do I will post it here. Many Thanks again.

[Cuillodge]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

Couldn't find anything in FMP newspapers and periodicals, nor the The Times. I tried opening up the criteria to see if I could find the original wounding but still drew a blank.

Looks like the only information about him being wounded comes from a local paper, which in turn would have come from James' family (or friends). While they may have had official notification it's just as likely that the family\friends received the information about the wounding from James himself. So possibly this needs to be treated with an added level of caution.

Of course there is always one more set of search criteria that can be tried. Unfortunately The Royal Scots Museum have currently chosen not to make anything available via the Ogilby Muster but may be worth contacting them directly https://www.theogilbymuster.com/royal_scots_regimental_museum

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter. I will do this. Will post answer.

[roughdiamond]

It maybe worth checking with the MOD  to see if they have any records for his service as 615508 RE, although it's £30, you get your check sent back if they don't find anything.

Fantastic work by the members and it must be a huge disappointment the DCM claim was bogus, but regardless, you now know he served and survived through a difficult time for the British Army, you can also follow his service with the War Diary, you know his Army number and that he has entitlement the 1914 Star with Clasp trio. 

One other suggestion is to check if, as he was entitled to do, he joined "The Old Contemptible Association", I believe the records are on line.

 

Sam