Missing medal??

[TDS]

Cheers all

Sorry for not replying earlier, but I've had an elderly relative issue which needed sorting out.

I'm still working through this one, but unfortunately there is nobody left alive that could help out with background info. There still seems to be a 3rd medal he wore, but as usual nobody can work out what it might have been and there are no photos with any ribbons either.

You guys have certainly dug out a bit more info, which I'll add into his story, thank you all.

Dave

 

[chaz]

The third medal, would it have been the silver badge, around the same size as the round ones. I doubt it would have been the French  CdG.

[TDS]

I could have been his SWB, I'll have to trawl through some very old and grainy pictures next time I'm in my father's place; there is an off chance there might be a picture of him with his medals on.

 

[gethine45]

On 19/02/2022 at 00:29, PRC said:

Hi @TDS and a belated welcome to the forum.

There can sometime be value when there are no surviving service records for an individual to try a near service number search. If this turns up sufficient documentation it may be possible to discern patterns that might apply to your uncle.

So checking out the Medal Index Card (MiC) records and checking against what available on the free to search screen on FindMyPast & Ancestry brings up:-

47345 Charles Banner. Landed France 30th May 1915. Honourably discharged 29th October 1918. Surviving service records.

47346 Hubert R. Cornish. Victory Medal and British War Medal only. No surviving service records.

47349 Leonard J Andrews. Victory Medal and British War Medal only. No surviving service records.

47350 Archibald Jeffs. Landed in France 19th July 1915. No surviving service records.

47351 Timothy Davies. Landed in France 15th July 1915. No surviving service records.

47352 Arthur Newton. Landed in France 20th September 1915. No surviving service records.

47353 John Cross. Landed in France 18th July 1915. Honourably discharged 18th July 1915. Check Silver War Badge Roll for enlistment date. No surviving service records.

47354 William Todd. Landed in France 21st September 1915. No surviving service records.

47355 Thomas Dunderdale. Landed in France 18th July 1915. Surviving Discharge Records.

47356 Charles Norton Wall, (other sources have middle name as Horton or Haughton). Enlisted 19th October 1914 – I thinks its actually 417356 from the SWB MiC.

47356 Benjamin J Tann, Victory Medal and British War Medal only Honourably discharged and received Silver War Badge. No surviving service records. Check Silver War Badge Roll for enlistment date.

47357 Henry Rodan. Landed in France 24th February 1915. No surviving service records.

47358 Frank Cyril Edgar Jones

47360 Henry C Gilbert. Landed in France 9th May 1915. No surviving service records.

47362 Walter Maxwell subsequently commissioned in 1917 into the Worcestershire Yeomanry. Landed in France 9th May 1915. Other ranks records likely to be mixed in with his officer papers.

47363 Sydney F. Lynch subsequently 76163 Tank Corps. Landed in France 1st June 1915. FMP says it has service records under his Tank Corps number, but could just be a one-pager found in another mans records looking at the way it has been indexed. If it is a surviving service record then should also be on Ancestry.

47365 Percy Wilding. Landed in Egypt 14th July 1915 – suspect that should be Gallipoli and unfortunately with MiCs for the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force it’s not uncommon for them to show date of sailing rather than date of landing. No surviving service records.

47366 Thomas A. Roberts. Has two MiCs. One as T.A. Roberts for his 1914/15 Star, and one as Thomas A. Roberts for his Victory Medal and British War Medal. Landed in Egypt 14th July 1915 – same advice as for Percy Wilding. No surviving service records.

47371 George Adams. Landed in Egypt 14th July 1915 – same advice as for Percy Wilding. No surviving service records.

47373 Cyril Mason Webber.  Silver War Badge only, no overseas service. Enlisted 21st August 1914 discharged 15th March 1915 – “Not likely to become an efficient soldier”. Surviving service records.

Which would suggest the RAMC had only recruited 15 men since Frank Jones signed up in October 1913.

From what I know of Quakers it would be very difficult to envisage circumstances in which an Attender at a meeting would be able to justify joining any arm of a military organisation – even a medical corps. My understanding is that even the formation of the Friends Medical Unit in 1914 came close to splitting the movement in the UK.

At best a 1913 enlistment might imply joining the Territorial Force – that was dedicated to defending the Home islands in the case of war, and assisting with civil emergencies when called upon. The Regular Army for a practicing Quaker seems too much of a step.

However I’m not aware of this number block being used by the Territorial Force, although I have very limited expertise in this area. I had wondered if the Territoral Force War Medal might have been another consideration for the missing third medal. But several of the men are shown as discharged to Class Z on their MiCs – and that’s not the route for Territorial Force men who would simply be stood down, or “disembodied”.

Expanding the search I then tried looking at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website for men in the number block 47300 to 47399.

47308 W.H. Cameron died in France on the 11th May 1917 serving with the 8th Field Ambulance.  MiC shows he landed in France 24th February 1915.

47386 J. Heaps died in Belgium on the 7th February 1917 serving with the 70th Field Ambulance. MiC shows Victory Medal and British War Medal only.

47394 George Clower died in France on the 22nd February 1919 serving with the 35th Field Ambulance. MiC shows landed Egypt 17th July 1915.

Hopefully a check of the surviving service \ discharge records and a few more dates of enlistment via the Silver War Badge Roll may expand knowledge of the early Army career of your Uncle.

Cheers,
Peter

I note your comment about Quakers but in fact some 30% of all eligible Quaker men joined the military and some 226 were killed, and 24 associated with the FAU also died. Whilst there was some hesitation about the formation of the FAU it would be incorrect to state that this action led to 'splits' within the body, and the FAU were widely supported within what was then London Yearly Meeting - the supreme governing body of the Society] Within the Yearly Meeting there was a vociferous voice in support of the war, but this never led to division.

[steve fuller]

Just my two pennies worth ... 

• Although unofficially linked by history, the Bedfordshire Regiment was separate to the Hertfordshire Regiment during the war. In July 1919 the Hertfords were merged into the Bedfords, forming the Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment. Hence, Medal Rolls created after July 1919 refer to the Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment as - administratively - that was their title at the time the medals were issued, irrespective of when they were earned.

Anyway, specific to Frank Jones:

• From the service number data I've collected over the years, the ones around 47358 seems to have been issued specifically in the Bedfordshire Regiment between late 1917 and early summer 1918. I imagine that those on PRC's excellent list referring to those who landed in France before 1918 are dates they arrived whilst in prior units?
• Does the number 249998 appear anywhere other than on the transcription? If not, it may be a red herring.
• 249998 does not seem to appear in groups of Bedfordshire or Hertfordshire Regiment WW1 service numbers I have come across (although I think I have the vast majority of them, there may be a gap of course, although it would have to be a numerically large one).
• When the Herts were renumbered in 1917 their number block started at 265001 and the Bedfordshire Territorial numbers started from 200001. Neither regiment made it into the 249*** area.
• Garrison battalions don't feature in the service number range either
• Post war numbers (from July 1919 renumbering of what was by then the Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire regiment started in the 59***** group and had an additional digit)
• Hence, I'm not sure 249998 is a Bedford number, or a Hertford number
• His Silver War Badge enlistment and age at discharge dates suggest he was 16 when enlisting in October 1913? Other than as a drummer boy, could he have enlisted into any other arm bar the territorials at that age?
• I have seen - certainly by 1918 - many instances of men being moved between different types of units (TF, Regular, etc.) and even across regiments without their service number changing, so although he was in the Hertfordshire Regiment (A Territorial unit), having a number typically associated to Regular, Reserve or Service Battalions in the Bedfordshire Regiment does not particularly surprise me. Seems to often suggest the soldier was not in that unit for very long, maybe the admin lagged behind? 
• Looks to me that his 28/8/1918 date or injury (logged as neurasthenia I see) is probably shell shock or his nerves giving out. The German artillery and MG barrage was intense during the Herts operations (Battle of Albert) 21-23 August 1918, near Achiet le Grand. Presumably he tried carrying on but was eventually sent back for treatment, or got a delayed response having been holding on tight for too many days. If he was a Stretcher Bearer (which seems likely from comments made here) I'm not surprised really, they had a bad job at the best of times and the slopes in front of Achiet were certainly heavy with German artillery and MG fire during the battle.

Where was he / his next of kin living by 1918? I'm thinking local papers may help.