Missing medal??

[TDS]

My Uncle, Frank Cyril Jones (Frank Syril Jones on 1 set of records) fought in WW1, (As a Quaker he wasn't allowed to bear arms), but he joined the RAMC on 16-10-1913, was inured 28-08-1915 and discharged (from the Hertfordshire Regiment) on the 01-03-1919.
We understand after he was injured he was transferred to away from the Front Line as became a horse trainer; he was genuine 'Horse Whisperer' and was allowed,after he was discharged to keep a horse (which he did, it was called Chester, and a Cavalry saddle to go with it.

His Service number 47358, refers to the Hert's as does his medal roll which states the BWM & VM.
He has another service number 2499958, but I can't find any reference to it anywhere?

His medals were stolen back in the 70s, but he always wore 3 of them; being injured in service, on the 28-08-1915, I would assume he would have entitled to the 1914- 15 star or even the 1914 Star (and clasp?).  He was blown up and buried alive, we know this as he often joked about sitting down to eat his lunch, and waking up in hospital; and was annoyed as he missed his meal...

I get this reference coming up, but I don't know how to access the files, records, etc.
"MH106/49 MH106/49 can be found at The National Archives in Kew, and contains First World War Representative Medical Records of Servicemen from 14th Field Ambulance"
Other relevant information:
 

Name:	Frank Cyril Jones
Record Type:	Card
Residence Place:	Landore
Service Number:	47358, 2499958
Corps, Regiment or Unit:	Ramc, Bedford
Title:	WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description:	Other Ranks Survived
Reference Number:	5/Mj/3215

Can anybody help me trace this missing medal roll or guide me on where to look?

Dave

[TEW]

The MH106/49 is an admissions & discharge book for 14 Field Ambulance in late 1918.

Find my Past have original scans of the page.

The rest of the information so far shows his war service with Herts or Herts & Bedford, there were mergers between the two.

Apart from your table there's nothing suggesting service with RAMC, where does that info come from? 14 Field Ambulance were RAMC, perhaps some info has been muddled up.

The second number is a post 1921 number to Royal Engineers Signals.

TEW

[Robin Garrett]

The 

32 minutes ago, TDS said:

I get this reference coming up, but I don't know how to access the files, records, etc.
"MH106/49 MH106/49 can be found at The National Archives in Kew, and contains First World War Representative Medical Records of Servicemen from 14th Field Ambulance"

Welcome Dave

You have two options to see this document: the first is to visit the National Archives at Kew and view the original; secondly, according to the NA it is availabe at FindmyPast. A quick search there found this https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?datasetname=british+armed+forces%2c+first+world+war+soldiers'+medical+records&sid=103&firstname=frank+cyril&firstname_variants=true&lastname=jones&servicenumber=47358

[TEW]

I see another pension card for him which says RAMC for the 47358 number and the second number is actually 249998 Bedfords.

Not sure why the other records show 46358 for Herts/Bedford rather than RAMC.

TEW

[TDS]

4 minutes ago, TEW said:

The MH106/49 is an admissions & discharge book for 14 Field Ambulance in late 1918.

Find my Past have original scans of the page.

The rest of the information so far shows his war service with Herts or Herts & Bedford, there were mergers between the two.

Apart from your table there's nothing suggesting service with RAMC, where does that info come from? 14 Field Ambulance were RAMC, perhaps some info has been muddled up.

The second number is a post 1921 number to Royal Engineers Signals.

TEW

That's what we have been told, and I assumed that the Ramc, Bedford would relate to the RAMC, we know he was a some sort of medic as his cloth badge has a Red Cross on it?

His medal roll is for the BWM and VM, but I can't find a reference to a Star?
I would have thought he would be entitled to 1 as he was injured in August 1915, with December 1915 being the cut off date?

[TDS]

Am I missing something here?

 

4 minutes ago, TEW said:

I see another pension card for him which says RAMC for the 47358 number and the second number is actually 249998 Bedfords.

Not sure why the other records show 46358 for Herts/Bedford rather than RAMC.

TEW

I thought the 47358 number was his RAMC number and the 2499958 was the Bed's or Hert's as well.

I'm sorta quite new to this WW1 research stuff and keep going up blind alleys, where did you find the other pension card with him at the RAMC, could you post it up so I can download it and add it to his file?

[TDS]

15 minutes ago, Robin Garrett said:

The 

Welcome Dave

You have two options to see this document: the first is to visit the National Archives at Kew and view the original; secondly, according to the NA it is availabe at FindmyPast. A quick search there found this https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?datasetname=british+armed+forces%2c+first+world+war+soldiers'+medical+records&sid=103&firstname=frank+cyril&firstname_variants=true&lastname=jones&servicenumber=47358

Is it possible to get at this without paying?

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, TDS said:

inured 28-08-1915

Can I suggest that this is a mistake and should read 1918. That is the date he was admitted to hospital.

9 minutes ago, TDS said:

get at this without paying?

Go to your local library who probably have an ancestry and Findmypast subscription?

[TDS]

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Can I suggest that this is a mistake and should read 1918. That is the date he was admitted to hospital.

I have the date of the original injury as 28-08-1915, and transferred to other hospitals as 28-08-1918?

[charlie962]

3 minutes ago, TDS said:

I have the date of the original injury as 28-08-1915, and transferred to other hospitals as 28-08-1918?

It is a transcription error by forces war records. He was admitted and discharged same day 1918. I have seen the original book on Findmypast.

[TDS]

Just now, charlie962 said:

It is a transcription error by forces war records. He was admitted and discharged same day 1918. I have seen the original book on Findmypast.

Any chance you could upload that for me please?

I have FWR and Ancestry, but I can't afford to Find My past as well.

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, TDS said:

chance you could upload that for me please?

You are not allowed to ask us to look up on subscriber sites!

But I can tell you he was admitted 28/8/18 to 14 Field Ambulance and discharged same day to the Casualty Clearing Station. This is what fwr were saying except they got the admission year wrong. Ask them to verify?

[TDS]

1 minute ago, charlie962 said:

You are not allowed to ask us to look up on subscriber sites!

But I can tell you he was admitted 28/8/18 to 14 Field Ambulance and discharged same day to the Casualty Clearing Station. This is what fwr were saying except they got the admission year wrong. Ask them to verify?

Opps; that'll teach me to read the forum rules a bit more closely....

[TDS]

4 minutes ago, TDS said:

Opps; that'll teach me to read the forum rules a bit more closely....

I've asked them to verify the dates and check his entitlement to the 1914/1914- 15 star as well.

[TEW]

The two pension  cards seem to conflict. The 47358 number is Bedford on one and RAMC on the other. MIC & SWB show Herts or Herts/Bedford.

Not sure what units are shown on the Medal Rolls but I don't think RAMC wore red cross armbands as their uniform already had the red cross.

TEW

[TDS]

31 minutes ago, TEW said:

The two pension  cards seem to conflict. The 47358 number is Bedford on one and RAMC on the other. MIC & SWB show Herts or Herts/Bedford.

Not sure what units are shown on the Medal Rolls but I don't think RAMC wore red cross armbands as their uniform already had the red cross.

TEW

Cheers TEW, it's coming together; slowly.

[Andrew Upton]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

... I don't think RAMC wore red cross armbands as their uniform already had the red cross...

It's common to see RAMC members wearing the Red Cross armlet even if they are already wearing the Red Cross sleeve badges, eg:

 

[TEW]

Thanks Andrew, nice photos.

I've just checked his BWM/Vict medal roll which is for entry to theatre with Herts. Regiment 47358. It's a Herts & Bedford roll.

Apart from the other pension card and the armband there's nothing that relates to RAMC. Perhaps a Regimental stretcher bearer?

Someone has added an extra digit to his other number it's 249998 not 2499958.

Again only the other pension card has this number against 'Bedford'.

He didn't have this number when wounded in 1918 or when discharged in 1919. Bit of a mystery as to where it fits in.

The 'other' pension card could well be wrong as far as units with corresponding numbers is concerned. The ledger in your opening post has nothing for RAMC or 249998.

 

Three Medals.

I can only see two for service in war after 1/1/6, unless the SWB is included. Or there's a gallantry award somewhere.

TEW

 

 

[chaz]

I wonder why he is shown as enlisting in 1913 when the war didnt start until 1914? maybe he joined up but didnt go overseas early enough to qualify for a star.

another thing to consider is that some soldiers added medals they were not entitled to because they had seen others  with the extra one.

Ive had a look but the only other I could find was the SWB list which confirms his enlistment of 1913. there may be transcription errors 

[charlie962]

I wondered why he was interested in joining the Army aged 16 or 17 before the war if his family were Quakers?

[chaz]

maybe a rebel, could he have enlisted as a different name? is  there any other family possibilities?

we will probably never know.

[Notes]

If you can find the document you want at the National Archives, you ought to be able to download it for free.  Just register with them to set up an online account.  You have to go through the 'official' checkout/payment procedure, but will be charged the princely sum of £0.00 - very easy, as long as you can find the document.  TNA's search function leaves rather a lot to be desired...

[Notes]

Army enlistment doesn't just depend on there being a war to fight, recruitment went on all the time, just as it does now at any forces careers office.  Training of men and 'work-up' prior to deployment could easily take a year or so, depending on what needed to be done and how quickly the recruit qualified.  Employment opportunities may have been limited where he lived, and military life was always promoted as adventurous, 'see the world' stuff.  Army chaplains were always required in a pastoral, non-combatant role because a lot more people were regular church/chapel attenders.  Medical orderlies were similarly essential, for obvious reasons. So then as now, you learned skills in the forces, useful for a post-forces career.

[PRC]

Hi @TDS and a belated welcome to the forum.

There can sometime be value when there are no surviving service records for an individual to try a near service number search. If this turns up sufficient documentation it may be possible to discern patterns that might apply to your uncle.

So checking out the Medal Index Card (MiC) records and checking against what available on the free to search screen on FindMyPast & Ancestry brings up:-

47345 Charles Banner. Landed France 30th May 1915. Honourably discharged 29th October 1918. Surviving service records.

47346 Hubert R. Cornish. Victory Medal and British War Medal only. No surviving service records.

47349 Leonard J Andrews. Victory Medal and British War Medal only. No surviving service records.

47350 Archibald Jeffs. Landed in France 19th July 1915. No surviving service records.

47351 Timothy Davies. Landed in France 15th July 1915. No surviving service records.

47352 Arthur Newton. Landed in France 20th September 1915. No surviving service records.

47353 John Cross. Landed in France 18th July 1915. Honourably discharged 18th July 1915. Check Silver War Badge Roll for enlistment date. No surviving service records.

47354 William Todd. Landed in France 21st September 1915. No surviving service records.

47355 Thomas Dunderdale. Landed in France 18th July 1915. Surviving Discharge Records.

47356 Charles Norton Wall, (other sources have middle name as Horton or Haughton). Enlisted 19th October 1914 – I thinks its actually 417356 from the SWB MiC.

47356 Benjamin J Tann, Victory Medal and British War Medal only Honourably discharged and received Silver War Badge. No surviving service records. Check Silver War Badge Roll for enlistment date.

47357 Henry Rodan. Landed in France 24th February 1915. No surviving service records.

47358 Frank Cyril Edgar Jones

47360 Henry C Gilbert. Landed in France 9th May 1915. No surviving service records.

47362 Walter Maxwell subsequently commissioned in 1917 into the Worcestershire Yeomanry. Landed in France 9th May 1915. Other ranks records likely to be mixed in with his officer papers.

47363 Sydney F. Lynch subsequently 76163 Tank Corps. Landed in France 1st June 1915. FMP says it has service records under his Tank Corps number, but could just be a one-pager found in another mans records looking at the way it has been indexed. If it is a surviving service record then should also be on Ancestry.

47365 Percy Wilding. Landed in Egypt 14th July 1915 – suspect that should be Gallipoli and unfortunately with MiCs for the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force it’s not uncommon for them to show date of sailing rather than date of landing. No surviving service records.

47366 Thomas A. Roberts. Has two MiCs. One as T.A. Roberts for his 1914/15 Star, and one as Thomas A. Roberts for his Victory Medal and British War Medal. Landed in Egypt 14th July 1915 – same advice as for Percy Wilding. No surviving service records.

47371 George Adams. Landed in Egypt 14th July 1915 – same advice as for Percy Wilding. No surviving service records.

47373 Cyril Mason Webber.  Silver War Badge only, no overseas service. Enlisted 21st August 1914 discharged 15th March 1915 – “Not likely to become an efficient soldier”. Surviving service records.

Which would suggest the RAMC had only recruited 15 men since Frank Jones signed up in October 1913.

From what I know of Quakers it would be very difficult to envisage circumstances in which an Attender at a meeting would be able to justify joining any arm of a military organisation – even a medical corps. My understanding is that even the formation of the Friends Medical Unit in 1914 came close to splitting the movement in the UK.

At best a 1913 enlistment might imply joining the Territorial Force – that was dedicated to defending the Home islands in the case of war, and assisting with civil emergencies when called upon. The Regular Army for a practicing Quaker seems too much of a step.

However I’m not aware of this number block being used by the Territorial Force, although I have very limited expertise in this area. I had wondered if the Territoral Force War Medal might have been another consideration for the missing third medal. But several of the men are shown as discharged to Class Z on their MiCs – and that’s not the route for Territorial Force men who would simply be stood down, or “disembodied”.

Expanding the search I then tried looking at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website for men in the number block 47300 to 47399.

47308 W.H. Cameron died in France on the 11th May 1917 serving with the 8th Field Ambulance.  MiC shows he landed in France 24th February 1915.

47386 J. Heaps died in Belgium on the 7th February 1917 serving with the 70th Field Ambulance. MiC shows Victory Medal and British War Medal only.

47394 George Clower died in France on the 22nd February 1919 serving with the 35th Field Ambulance. MiC shows landed Egypt 17th July 1915.

Hopefully a check of the surviving service \ discharge records and a few more dates of enlistment via the Silver War Badge Roll may expand knowledge of the early Army career of your Uncle.

Cheers,
Peter

[TEW]

Are we saying Frank joined the RAMC in 1913 with #47358 and then entered a theatre of war with the same number but now as Herts. Regiment. He was then discharged from the Herts/Bedford Regt. with the same number and put in for a pension as Bedfords under #47358.

The 47358 number matches others in Herts. Regt. EG. 47357 Arthur Jones, Ebbw Vale was formerly #1861 RAMC (Soldiers Died). His MIC has Bedfords 47357!.

The Herts. were entirely a TF unit but were re-numbered to the Bedford's system. Not sure why 47358 was not re-numbered, unless that's where his 249998 comes in as 11th Bedfords it only shows on a post war record.

TEW