Help Needed: Karlsruhe POW camp

[Sarge53rd]

I wonder if anyone out there either has information on the POW camp my Grandfather was held captive in, or can point me in the right direction for information?

I have two photo postcards of my Grandfather (Lt. Frank Audsley Marsden, then 9th KOYLI) in a prisoner of war camp. I believe he was taken prisoner in May 1918 and was demobilized in April (?) 1919. I'm not sure exactly when he came out of the camp.

One card is of him in the camp compound and says on the back:

Lt. F.A. Marsden

Offizier Kriegsgefangenenlager

Karlsruhe

It's dated June 12, 1918.

The second card is a photo postcard of the camp orchestra (him included) and says on the back:

Offizier Gefangenlager

Schweidnitz

Orchestra

May to Dec 1918

On the front of the card looks like a perforated stamp/stencil and it says:

KUNZE

SCHWEIDNITZ

I'm going to try to scan an image (new scanner so not totally sure of the technology!) of at least one card. Any information or help would be greatly appreciated!

Kind regards,

Paul Jerram

[BeppoSapone]

Dundee University Archives hold journals kept by 2/Lt Joseph Johnstone Lee of 10th KRRC while a prisoner of war in German camps at Karlsruhe and Beeskow. He also wrote a book "A Captive at Carlsruhe".

More on Lee here: http://www.dundee.ac.uk/pressreleases/prjan04/soldiers.html

Lee's most well known poem:

Every bullet has its billet;

Many bullets more than one:

God! Perhaps I killed a mother

When I killed a mother's son.

[stevem]

Hi Paul

According to the Cox & Co. list of officer POWs, your grandfather was captured on 27 May 1918 and repatriated in January 1919.

The following is a description of Karlsruhe camp:

Karlsruhe (Carlsruhe) – The capital (pop. 100 000) of the Grand Duchy of Baden. The streets spread out fan-wise from the shloss. This town has become industrialised since 1870 and makes engines, railway carriages, furniture, plated goods etc. There is an officer’s camp to which the great number of newly captured British officers are sent. It consists of wooden huts erected in the grounds of the shloss. 14th Army Corps

The description comes from the gazetter compiled by Mrs Pope-Hennessey.

I have seen Karlsruhe described as a distribution camp for officers, on arrival there, all particulars taken of them and later sent to proper prison camps.

This would seem to be in agreement with the information you posted, as your grandfather was also held in Schweidnitz.

Schweidnitz - A prettily situated town (pop 31,300) on the Weistritz. It was used as a place of internment in 1870. The builidng in which the officers are interned was once a lazaret and consists of usual brick barracks. A church is in the garden of about an acre. Half a mile from station and two hours by train from Breslau. 6th Army Corps. Description also from Pope-Hennessey.

I hope this is of interest.

Regards

Steve

[Sarge53rd]

Dundee University Archives hold journals kept by 2/Lt Joseph Johnstone Lee of 10th KRRC while a prisoner of war in German camps at Karlsruhe and Beeskow. He also wrote a book "A Captive at Carlsruhe".

More on Lee here: http://www.dundee.ac.uk/pressreleases/prjan04/soldiers.html

Lee's most well known poem:

Every bullet has its billet;

Many bullets more than one:

God! Perhaps I killed a mother

When I killed a mother's son.

This looks very interesting reading and I would like to obtain it to get a first hand account. Thank you very much for your help!

Kind regards,

Paul Jerram

[Sarge53rd]

Hi Paul

According to the Cox & Co. list of officer POWs, your grandfather was captured on 27 May 1918 and repatriated in January 1919.

The following is a description of Karlsruhe camp:

Karlsruhe (Carlsruhe) – The capital (pop. 100 000) of the Grand Duchy of Baden. The streets spread out fan-wise from the shloss. This town has become industrialised since 1870 and makes engines, railway carriages, furniture, plated goods etc. There is an officer’s camp to which the great number of newly captured British officers are sent. It consists of wooden huts erected in the grounds of the shloss. 14th Army Corps

The description comes from the gazetter compiled by Mrs Pope-Hennessey.

I have seen Karlsruhe described as a distribution camp for officers, on arrival there, all particulars taken of them and later sent to proper prison camps.

This would seem to be in agreement with the information you posted, as your grandfather was also held in Schweidnitz.

Schweidnitz - A prettily situated town (pop 31,300) on the Weistritz. It was used as a place of internment in 1870. The builidng in which the officers are interned was once a lazaret and consists of usual brick barracks. A church is in the garden of about an acre. Half a mile from station and two hours by train from Breslau. 6th Army Corps. Description also from Pope-Hennessey.

I hope this is of interest.

Regards

Steve

Steve -

Thank you very, very much for your information and help. This gives me something concrete to go on to help better understand what my Grandfather went through. I look forward to someday seeing the fields on which he fought, the place where he was taken prisoner and held captive ... to walk in his footsteps is a dream of mine.

Thank you again!

Kind regards,

Paul Jerram

[Lindsey]

Paul

Thanks to this forum, I will be able to do what you imagine, I will walk in my grandfathers footsteps in May. A very kind forum member identified a photo I have, of the place my grandfather was marching through in Peronne and i am going there to walk in his steps...... hopefully!!

My grandfather also became a captive soldier later, in Austria, after the battle of Asiago in 1918, which is why I am so intrested in his journey and where he was held captive, as I still dont know, despite having documentation regarding his captivity. I dont understand the german/austrian language in the documentation and despite various translations by forum pals, it has still not revealed his place of captivity!!

I havent given up though!!

[Lindsey]

Sorry, posted twice by mistake!! I'm a hoplesss technocrat!!

[JulianB]

I'd just like to add that as my grandfather (cap March '18) was at K/Carlsruhe and then at Beeskow, how interested I was to see the reference to Joseph Lee, I'll go and find the book at the BL (being in London rather than Dundee!).

He (grandfather) described K/C as a sort of 'officers transit camp' in one of his letters.

Paul, do you have any dates for exactly when yr gfthr was at K/C ?, though I'm afraid the letters from mine do not mention names.

J

[Sarge53rd]

I'd just like to add that as my grandfather (cap March '18) was at K/Carlsruhe and then at Beeskow, how interested I was to see the reference to Joseph Lee, I'll go and find the book at the BL (being in London rather than Dundee!).

He (grandfather) described K/C as a sort of 'officers transit camp' in one of his letters.

Paul, do you have any dates for exactly when yr gfthr was at K/C  ?, though I'm afraid the letters from mine do not mention names.

J

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Julian -

I don't have exact dates but I do know this so we can imply some things:

1. He was taken prisoner on May 27th, 1918, near the Reims - Cambrai Road about 5 miles S.E. of Berry - au - Bac.

2. I have a photo postcard of him in Karslruhe, dated June 12th 1918.

Other than that, it's pretty sketchy.

Thanks for your post - fascianting stuff!

Kind regards,

Paul Jerram

[Sarge53rd]

Paul

Thanks to this forum, I will be able to do what you imagine, I will walk in my grandfathers footsteps in May. A very kind forum member identified a photo I have, of the place my grandfather was marching through in Peronne and i am going there to walk in his steps...... hopefully!!

My grandfather also became a captive soldier later, in Austria, after the battle of Asiago in 1918, which is why I am so intrested in his journey and where he was held captive, as I still dont know, despite having documentation regarding his captivity.  I dont understand the german/austrian language in the documentation and despite various translations by forum pals, it has still not revealed his place of captivity!!

I havent given up though!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lindsay -

Thanks for your post. I am jealous! I hope to start to retrace my own Grandfather's footsteps sometime soon but now living in the United States makes it a bit harder to get to the battlefields.

Enjoy your trip and enjoy experiencing the journey "with" your Grandfather!

Kind regards,

Paul Jerram

[Guest Robert Powell]

Paul,

My grandfather was also in Karlsruhe towards the end of WWI. I have photographs of my grandfather smoking a cigarette with the german guards in the camp.

However, I also have an 'autograph book' consisting of around 40 pages of comments, drawings and poems. There is a maximum posting of one page per person and some pages have up to 10 postings. The comments are from many nationalities and give a good indication of life in the camp whilst waiting for the end of the war to arrive.

One page is reproduced below to give a flavour of the quality - check out the website for the castle (Castelo de Braganca) at http://www.castelos.com.pt/bgc/bgc/braganca.html to see how close to life the picture is.

I have checked the pages but cannot see any comment from your relative (but I may have missed it).

Are you interested in a copy of the pages and any idea how I can get these to you.

Regards,

Robert.

[Sarge53rd]

Paul,

My grandfather was also in Karlsruhe towards the end of WWI. I have photographs of my grandfather smoking a cigarette with the german guards in the camp.

However, I also have an 'autograph book' consisting of around 40 pages of comments, drawings and poems. There is a maximum posting of one page per person and some pages have up to 10 postings. The comments are from many nationalities and give a good indication of life in the camp whilst waiting for the end of the war to arrive.

One page is reproduced below to give a flavour of the quality - check out the website for the castle (Castelo de Braganca) at http://www.castelos.com.pt/bgc/bgc/braganca.html to see how close to life the picture is.

I have checked the pages but cannot see any comment from your relative (but I may have missed it).

Are you interested in a copy of the pages and any idea how I can get these to you.

Regards,

Robert.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Robert -

This is just fascinating stuff! I have sent you a PM offline with my contact information and I will be happy to share the little I have on my Grandfather's experience at Karlsruhe, with you, if you'd like. I am extremely interested in obtaining copies of the autograph page comments. I am just having a research project on my Grandfather finished up so this is fascinating information for me. I appreciate your time and thinking of me!

Kind regards,

Paul Jerram

Roswell, GA, USA

[christine liava'a]

Robert, would there be any mention in the " autograph book " of this AIF man?

Major Victor Joseph Waine 20th, 46th, Bns AIF

SERN Maj

wounded and captured at Bullecourt 11 April 1917

POW at Karlsruhe; Strohen; and Augustabad Camps;

Red Cross file no 2830201

returned to Australia 16 March 1919

Christine

[Doug Johnson]

Paul,

As part of my research in Gustrow PoW camp I purchased a copy of Captain Donaldson's book "The Amazing Cruise of the German Raider Wolf" published in 1941. Captain Donaldson was a merchant marine Captain of the SS Matunga which was taken by the Wolf on its way to Rabaul. There is a small chapter in the book on Karlsruhe which describes the camp as being near the centre of the town. He was first taken to a "Hotel" for fumigation and then into the camp proper which consisted of nine wooden huts or barracks. One of those was in use by the Kommandant and other officials and another for the prisoners dining room off which were two rooms for reading and writing. A third barracks was for amusements. Each of the remaining barracks was used for prisoners accommodation and was divided up into a series of rooms, the largest accommodating eight. Each room had a stove and there was an unlimited supply of coal (this was during the first two weeks of March 1918). The huts were surrounded by a barbed wire fence and six feet beyond that there was a 10ft high wooden fence surrounded by barbed wire and beyond that another high barbed wire fence. The food supplied by the Germans was plentiful but badly cooked. Breakfast was a jug of coffee substitute (no sugar or milk) at 8.00am (no food either). Dinner at noon was a plate of vegetable soup and rye bread (twice a week the soup might contain some meat). Tea at 6.00pm consisted of left over soup or a few potatoes in their jackets. Muster rolls were two per day at 9.45am and 8.45pm. Lights out was at 9.00pm but they were allowed to walk about till 11.00am. There was plenty of room for excercise. The camp appears to have been a head camp as he and others were moved out after just over two weeks to Heidelburg (by train in a first class carriage!)

Doug

[Doug Johnson]

Further to my last mesage, there are numerous photographs of Karlsruhe on the AWM site. (search their collection database)

[Sarge53rd]

Doug -

Fantastic information - thanks very much!

Paul

[owilki1984]

Hi everyone,

I realize that it has been some time since this thread was posted, but I have only just come across it.

It caught my attention as I have been researching my great grandfather for my history dissertation. (Which some of you are probably sick of hearing about – Sorry) Anyway he was in the 9th KOYLI, and was taken prisoner on the 27th May 1918 on the Aisne, thus the same day and place as the guy referred to here

I thus decided to look through the information that I possess to see if there is any mention of this guy, and bingo I found a reference.

The 9th KOYLI regimental diary for the 26th May 1918 mentions reads:

“At 9:30.p.m we received a message from 2nd Lieut. MARSDEN who commanded our right front Company that he had been warned by the French on our right that there were signs of an impending attack in the German Lines”

Marsden thus played a part in alerting the British to the impending ‘Blucher’ Offensive – Remarkable.

I cannot see any other mention of his name in the section of the diary that I have which covers 26th, 27th and 28th May.

He does however feature in Derek Clayton’s book From Pontefract to Picardy. The 9th King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry in the First World War (Tempus, 2004). (Refered to at Kemmel, p. 159, and at Chemin des Dames, p. 168) I would recommend this book to anyone interested in the history of the 9th KOYLI. The section on the Chemin des Dames is good in showing just what happened on 27th May 1918.

On page 168 Clayton reiterates what the regimental diary said, but he adds some information saying that 2nd Lieut. MARSDEN was in ‘C’ Company. This means, using the regimental dairy again, that he can be placed in one of 2 redouts running along the Berry-au-Bac to Reims road. Either Redoute des Chasseurs and Redoute des Wattignies.

A map makes this easier to understand and there is a good simple one in Clayton’s book but I am afraid I have no scanner to provide this for you here.

From this information you can, however, pin down exactly where Marsden was taken prisoner. These redouts were held until overwhelmed. When he was captured he would have been at one of these places.

I know that this research is small fry to a lot of the better informed guys on this forum, however I must admit I did get quite excited in finding the stuff out.

Its great in itself, but from a selfish point of view it helps me to build a picture of what happened to my great grandfather, who was attached to A Company, and was in an adjacent redoute to Marsden.(Bastion Jemmapes).

I hope people find this interesting and if anyone has any information I for one would be very interested in it. I would have thought the guy who started this thread would also be.

Also one other thing, at the website (Link) there is a picture of the 9th KOYLI officers. (It is also reproduced on the cover of Clayton’s book). I was thinking Marsden might be among them. Does anyone know for sure?

http://www.battlefields1418.com/9koyli.htm

Oli

[Sarge53rd]

Hi everyone,

I realize that it has been some time since this thread was posted, but I have only just come across it.

It caught my attention as I have been researching my great grandfather for my history dissertation. (Which some of you are probably sick of hearing about – Sorry) Anyway he was in the 9th KOYLI, and was taken prisoner on the 27th May 1918 on the Aisne, thus the same day and place as the guy referred to here

I thus decided to look through the information that I possess to see if there is any mention of this guy, and bingo I found a reference.

The 9th KOYLI regimental diary for the 26th May 1918 mentions reads:

“At 9:30.p.m we received a message from 2nd Lieut. MARSDEN who commanded our right front Company that he had been warned by the French on our right that there were signs of an impending attack in the German Lines”

Marsden thus played a part in alerting the British to the impending ‘Blucher’ Offensive – Remarkable.

I cannot see any other mention of his name in the section of the diary that I have which covers 26th, 27th and 28th May.

He does however feature in Derek Clayton’s book From Pontefract to Picardy. The 9th King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry in the First World War (Tempus, 2004). (Refered to at Kemmel, p. 159, and at Chemin des Dames, p. 168) I would recommend this book to anyone interested in the history of the 9th KOYLI. The section on the Chemin des Dames is good in showing just what happened on 27th May 1918.

On page 168 Clayton reiterates what the regimental diary said, but he adds some information saying that 2nd Lieut. MARSDEN was in ‘C’ Company. This means, using the regimental dairy again, that he can be placed in one of 2 redouts running along the Berry-au-Bac to Reims road. Either Redoute des Chasseurs and Redoute des Wattignies.

A map makes this easier to understand and there is a good simple one in Clayton’s book but I am afraid I have no scanner to provide this for you here.

From this information you can, however, pin down exactly where Marsden was taken prisoner. These redouts were held until overwhelmed. When he was captured he would have been at one of these places.

I know that this research is small fry to a lot of the better informed guys on this forum, however I must admit I did get quite excited in finding the stuff out.

Its great in itself, but from a selfish point of view it helps me to build a picture of what happened to my great grandfather, who was attached to A Company, and was in an adjacent redoute to Marsden.(Bastion Jemmapes).

I hope people find this interesting and if anyone has any information I for one would be very interested in it. I would have thought the guy who started this thread would also be.

Also one other thing, at the website (Link) there is a picture of the 9th KOYLI officers. (It is also reproduced on the cover of Clayton’s book). I was thinking Marsden might be among them. Does anyone know for sure?

http://www.battlefields1418.com/9koyli.htm

Oli

OLI - thanks so much for the information. Sent you a PM for follow up.

Kind regards,

Paul Jerram

[Guest PETER MANCHEE]

Hi Paul!

I know I am about 2 years late, but I have only just started looking into my family history and have a great uncle that was in Karlsruhe POW camp from June 1918. His name was William Candler (2nd lieutenant) who served in the 2nd Devon regiment. He was one of the few survivors from the battle of Bois des Buttes on 27th May 1918.

I have an original postcard from the POW camp that he sent home in June 1918. I have a newspaper cutting from 1968 (50th aniversary of the battle) which was written by his brother which tells the story of the battle, capture and time at the POW camp. He had two unsuccessful attempts to escape, on the first he was spotted by a sentry and on the second, when he was clean through the outer barbed wire fence, he was stopped by an Alsatian guard dog.

I have tried to find information and pictures on the web about the POW camp but have not found anything. Do you have any further info or links?

Best wishes

Pete

[Sarge53rd]

Hi Paul!

I know I am about 2 years late, but I have only just started looking into my family history and have a great uncle that was in Karlsruhe POW camp from June 1918. His name was William Candler (2nd lieutenant) who served in the 2nd Devon regiment. He was one of the few survivors from the battle of Bois des Buttes on 27th May 1918.

I have an original postcard from the POW camp that he sent home in June 1918. I have a newspaper cutting from 1968 (50th aniversary of the battle) which was written by his brother which tells the story of the battle, capture and time at the POW camp. He had two unsuccessful attempts to escape, on the first he was spotted by a sentry and on the second, when he was clean through the outer barbed wire fence, he was stopped by an Alsatian guard dog.

I have tried to find information and pictures on the web about the POW camp but have not found anything. Do you have any further info or links?

Best wishes

Pete

Hi Pete -

Sent you a PM back in January but you may not have seen it. Anyway, I had seen your post from Oct 1, 2007 with your question about Karlsruhe POW Camp. You mentioned that you were about 2 years late ... no worries, I'm 4 months late also! I had just found your post on doing a search (again). This research can be frustrating ... but rewarding.

Anyway, it seems like your great uncle was at Karlsruhe at exactly the same time as my grandfather, Lt. Frank Audsley Marsden. Seems like they were camp mates (isn't that fascinating, to think they may have met?) Frank was also captured on 27th May, but near Berry - au Bac. The only thing I have on Frank from Karlsruhe is one postcard taken of him standing in the grounds of the camp ... may be quite similar to yours that you mentioned. It is dated June 12, 1918. I know he was only there a short time (as Karlsruhe was evidently mainly a transitory/processing camp for officers?) and he spent the rest of the war in Schweidnitz. He came home to England in January, 1919.

I have found very little else about Karlsruhe ... mainly the references to it being used as a WWII camp ... evidently quite a notorious one? Very little else about its use in WWI.

If you would like to swap scanned (or mailed) copies of what you have on 2LT Candler, I'll be happy to either scan you and email you a copy of the card I have of Lt. Marsden, or copy it and mail it to you. Let me know.

Kind regards,

Paul Jerram

Roswell, GA, USA

[Doug Johnson]

Photo by F Albrecht, Karlsruhe, 1918.

[stevem]

A photo of Karlsruhe by F. Albrecht, sent to the UK in December 1917

[stevem]

Another of Karlsruhe by Albrecht, December 1917.

[Guest sianw]

My grandfather, Gwilym Heke, was in the Merchant Navy in WW1.

He was on the King George when it was sunk by the Meowe in 1916. He and the crew werre taken to Karlsruhe POW camp where he stayed until the end of the war.

I have a photo of him with the crew in the camp perhaps someone can recognise some of the men?

[Guest sianw]

Karlsruhe 1917