Life saving floats and rafts naval vessels WW1

[petermuir]

4 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Denton (biscuit) floats on the other hand were basic three foot square buoyancy aids with loops of tarred rope round the edges - providing men in the water with something to hang on to.

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

Found it! - Take a look here, albeit on deck stacked and stored (although, could be the US equivalent of a Denton).

https://archive.org/details/roadtofrancetran02crow/page/n149/mode/2up

This is an excellent piece of research. 

Thank you very much for taking the time to follow up my query.

Much appreciated.

[KizmeRD]

Interestingly, I have now come across the name of Major G.P. Denton in the Navy List for March 1919 where he’s  listed as working in the Department of the Controller-General of Merchant Shipping with the title of Assistant Director of Merchant Shipbuilding. I’d have to examine some earlier Navy Lists to see when he might have actually started in the Admiralty, but I suspect he might have been lurking there for the entire duration of the war (as a retired British Army officer, rather than a serving one).

Also, there’s a E.F Spanner Esq. listed as a Constructor working with the Chief Examiner and Secretary to Director of Warship Production, I wonder whether he’s the same guy who submitted the U.S. patent application for the Spanner life raft? (In which case he may well have been a Brit).

MB

 

[petermuir]

21 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

I’d have to examine some earlier Navy Lists to see when he might have actually started in the Admiralty, but I suspect he might have been lurking there for the entire duration of the war (as a retired British Army officer, rather than a serving one).

MB-I look forward to hearing the result of your further research.

[KizmeRD]

 

4 hours ago, petermuir said:

MB-I look forward to hearing the result of your further research.

You may have to wait awhile, as I have other priorities at the moment, but it’s on the ‘to do list’ - meantime, there’s nothing to stop you satisfying your curiosity by doing more research into WW1 naval life rafts yourself.

Seems to me that during WW1 there were various types of life rafts in naval service, but one man rigid floats were generally of the Denton type and Carley Floats of different sizes were also common (for multiple occupants). Other types of flotation devices were around too, and the Spanner may well be a later, more refined development of the Denton.

Bearing in mind that people loose body heat something like 15 times faster in water, with hindsight, its a great pity that the Admiralty hadn’t yet recognised the fact that it is considerably more beneficial to keep survivors out of the water, rather than in it. Many ‘drownings’ were in fact the result of physical incapacity due to the onset of hypothermia, not necessarily a lack of floatation.

MB

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

Bearing in mind that people loose body heat something like 15 times faster in water, with hindsight, its a great pity that the Admiralty hadn’t yet recognised the fact that it is considerably more beneficial to keep survivors out of the water, rather than in it. Many ‘drownings’ were in fact the result of physical incapacity due to the onset of hypothermia, not necessarily a lack of floatation.

Have to agree - being out of the water would have been a much better idea.

If it had been imbibed I think providing a spirit ration, on a Denton float, may have potentially speeded hypothermia and incapacity [but perhaps due to the alcohol you didn't care quite so much??]

And yet the smaller flotation devices/life jackets provided would not support an incapacitated survivour's face out of the water [unlike modern lifejackets are designed to do] thus drowning would have occurred before the core temperature actually became fatally low.

M

Edited 21 January , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[KizmeRD]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

And yet the smaller flotation devices/life jackets provided would not support an incapacitated survivour's face out of the water [unlike modern lifejackets are designed to do] thus drowning would have occurred before the core temperature actually became fatally low.

M

Ansolutely agree, the cork or kapok life vests in use during WW1 wouldn’t have kept the head out of the water, and a person incapacitated by cold would have drowned before the core temperature of the body got so low that they simply shut down.

MB

[yperman]

On 20/01/2022 at 06:41, KizmeRD said:

 

Denton (biscuit) floats on the other hand were basic three foot square buoyancy aids

I wonder if "biscuit" is  connected to that Glaswegian saying " I didn't come down the Clyde on a biscuit"?  Meaning I am not stupid?

[petermuir]

16 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Bearing in mind that people loose body heat something like 15 times faster in water, with hindsight, its a great pity that the Admiralty hadn’t yet recognised the fact that it is considerably more beneficial to keep survivors out of the water, rather than in it. Many ‘drownings’ were in fact the result of physical incapacity due to the onset of hypothermia, not necessarily a lack of floatation.

MB

I thought the following note from navy net would be of interest.

"Cold water immersion is awful. I was rotary wing aircrew and part of our training, certainly in SAR is in regard to immersion. Much of the medical data, survival times, (Temperature vs Time Immersed), goes back to WW2 and the German experimentation on the subject. Just getting bounced around in the water is bad enough but also the effect of swallowing salt water. The cold, sapping your energy! Add disorientation and injury!! Also, the main organs are under slight pressure in comparison to the air. Blood pushed from lower limbs to around the organs increase the pressure around the heart, lungs etc.
We, (Search and Rescue Organisations), have amended how we now recover survivors from the water. In the early days, survivors would be lifted vertically from the water. This rapid loss of pressure on the organs caused by the blood retuning to the legs could/would be the ultimate cause of death, (heart failure), not the cold nor the water ingestion. Today, a harness is placed around the survivors shoulders and also around their legs, (near the knees), this process would ensure that the body was in a position similar to what they would be if in the water. Meaning the blood would remain around the torso reducing the risk of organ failure."

[seaJane]

Definite tangent, but I used to know the man responsible for that discovery.

https://jrnms.bmj.com/content/100/1/106

[Matlock1418]

47 minutes ago, petermuir said:

Cold water immersion is awful. ... Just getting bounced around in the water is bad enough but also the effect of swallowing salt water. The cold, sapping your energy! Add disorientation and injury!!

It is awful - I've been there a few times in the water, bobbing around on the surface commonly caused me a lot of seasickness.  Modern liferafts hold anti-seasickness medications too as their motion can be pretty extreme too.  Seasick all adding to the nightmare of having to abandon your ship.

Many modern lifejackets include a spray hood to cover the face as it doesn't take a lot of water/sea spray to cause a pretty dry drowning (if not, cover your face with your hands - if you can!).

And so numbingly cold - As for the cold clothing can actually help [so long as it isn't dragging you down] yet the swilling of the water from your clothing increases heat loss - hence enclosed survival suits these days.  If suits are not worn then fishermen have been advised told to carry a few elastic bands in the pockets of their waterproof jackets - to put around the loose cuffs to reduce venting and swill if they end up in the water.

Amazing developments of both high and low tech since WW1.

M

[petermuir]

On 20/01/2022 at 16:14, KizmeRD said:

Also, there’s a E.F Spanner Esq. listed as a Constructor working with the Chief Examiner and Secretary to Director of Warship Production, I wonder whether he’s the same guy who submitted the U.S. patent application for the Spanner life raft? (In which case he may well have been a Brit).

MB

 

Regarding E.F.Spanner's nationality

Official gazette of the United States of America Patent Office
Vol 560-561, March - April 1944

Spanner, Edward F, London, England
Life saving apparatus, 2,344,652:Mar 21

The patent drawing gives his full name Edward Frank Spencer

Ancestry site reports:

Edward Frank Spencer
Born London February 6, 1888
Died London August 3, 1953

Abe Books search reveals:
Author. One of his books - The Broken Trident - the author blurb refers to him as being a Naval Architect 

Official gazette of the United States of America Patent Office
Vol 560-561, March - April 1944

Another patent - Spanner Boiler - June 4, 1935, 2,003,980 gives his address as Blackheath, London.

So I think that it's safe to conclude that he was English.

[KizmeRD]

35 minutes ago, petermuir said:

Regarding E.F.Spanner's nationality

Official gazette of the United States of America Patent Office
Vol 560-561, March - April 1944

So I think that it's safe to conclude that he was English.

Thank you for following up on this. Well done.

MB

PS Presume it was Edward Frank Spanner, not Spencer
Born London February 6, 1888
Died London August 3, 1953

Ooh Betty!

Further to your search on Ancestry, I’ve also seen it stated elsewhere that he was born in Portsea (Portsmouth) and died in London (Streatham), same dates.

 

Edited 24 January , 2022 by KizmeRD

[Felix C]

Carley float struck me as a strange item to use for life saving. Half of the body is in the water and the cold northern waters would kill the occupants much more quickly than if they had been out of the water. IIRC heat leaves the body from between the legs, armpit areas, and around the neck. OOps. I see Matlock already mentioned this. Oh well Sic transit gloria

Edited 24 January , 2022 by Felix C

[Matlock1418]

20 minutes ago, Felix C said:

Carley float struck me as a strange item to use for life saving

I think the GW/WW2 period thought probably was that they were less destructible than a lifeboat or ship's launch and easier/more reliably deployed [somewhat self-launching?] so better than nothing - even if, as we now acknowledge, perhaps only for a short time.

I do wonder about the high-tech inflatable life-rafts of the current period - though they can be self-launching and self-inflating how well might they have survived gunfire or now possibly fragments from a missile strike??  Similarly about modern enclosed lifeboats.  And about a modern survival suit and life-jacket mid-ocean.  Mounting a full rescue operation in wartime would still pose big problems.  Having to abandon ship is still a hazardous exercise, in or on/out of the water.  Glad I never have had to do it for real.

M

[Felix C]

When I have seen photos where survivors are located, hoisted abroad, etc. from Carley floats, the float floor is in the upright position so the occupants are mostly out of the water. 

Edited 24 January , 2022 by Felix C

[Matlock1418]

17 minutes ago, Felix C said:

When I have seen photos where survivors are located, hoisted abroad, etc. from Carley floats, the float floor is in the upright position so the occupants are mostly out of the water. 

"upright position" ???

My feeling is the best that can be achieved is about waist-deep in the water - still a lot of lost heat to the water

and in the North Atlantic and a stiff breeze I wouldn't want wet clothing on my upper half either.

Not a good situation - Glad my father before me [Atlantic Star = respect!] and I later never ended up in the oggin in anger.

M

[Felix C]

On 18/01/2022 at 12:54, Talesofaseadog said:

The Engelhardt Collapsible. Have not read of its use in wartime. Presumably due to the amount of time to assemble and launch. Appears above to be a tolerable raft without the canvas raised.

[KizmeRD]

Engelhardt Collapsible Lifeboats were designed by a Danish Sea Captain and began to go into commercial service in 1902. They were seen as an efficient means of providing additional lifeboat capacity without taking up too much deck space (as Englehardts could be stacked beneath a conventional lifeboat). The design soon became popular worldwide, and they were in fact used on the Titanic (one was recovered from the open sea an entire month after the sinking). The British Admiralty also trialled them - first ordering a 20’ version in 1903.

MB

[petermuir]

On 24/01/2022 at 15:10, Felix C said:

Carley float ...

I wonder if you have a reference as to where to find this drawing. Thank you.

[Felix C]

random internet search. dead links as to source

[petermuir]

Just now, Felix C said:

random internet search. dead links as to source

Thx. Will do the same.

[Felix C]

View of boats and rafts on deck HMAS Australia

Edited 11 October , 2023 by Felix C

[seaJane]

Visited the National Museum of the Royal Navy today and found a Carley Float on display.

[petermuir]

Thank you seajane.

Proof that a picture is worth a thousand words