Life saving floats and rafts naval vessels WW1

[petermuir]

I am curious to find out more about what provision did the Admiralty make in the case of a vessel having to be abandoned/sunk.

Do the terms:

Carley floats

Dunton floats

Spanner rafts

ring any bells?

Many thaks.

[seaJane]

10 hours ago, petermuir said:

Carley floats

Yes, patented by Horace Carley of Philadelphia in 1903 and used by US and Royal Navies until after WW2.

 

[Matlock1418]

19 hours ago, petermuir said:

Dunton floats

Denton floats/rafts used WW2 {I don't know their origins so don't know if available in WW1]

M

Edited 18 January , 2022 by Matlock1418

[petermuir]

51 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Denton floats/rafts used WW2 {I don't know their origins so don't know if available in WW1]

M

You are correct.

What I can't find is any detailed information/desription concerning Denton floats either in WW2 or WW1.

9 hours ago, seaJane said:

Yes, patented by Horace Carley of Philadelphia in 1903 and used by US and Royal Navies until after WW2.

 

Thank you for this background information. Much appreciated.

I see that there is a great deal of information on line about this make. So that closes the Carley raft question.

Still looking for info about Denton floats.

 

[Matlock1418]

58 minutes ago, petermuir said:

Still looking for info about Denton floats.

A search on the 'net turns up info for modellers, references to HMS Hood and a photo of electricians at IWM - they seemed much smaller than Carley floats - but I couldn't find any further background info on them.

M

Edited 18 January , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[pete-c]

21 hours ago, petermuir said:

I am curious to find out more about what provision did the Admiralty make in the case of a vessel having to be abandoned/sunk.

Do the terms:

Carley floats

Dunton floats

Spanner rafts

ring any bells?

Many thaks.

I was recently searching for the utilization of a particular piece of equipment (which I could not identify) attached to the superstructure of a vessel.  On looking through a 1937 Manual of Seamanship I came across the attached.  Although more to do with 'man overboard' situations it may be something that you find interesting.

[seaJane]

Denton float - the correct term seems to be Denton raft.

I can find very little,.as you suggest, and the references are all WW2.

If you enter "Denton raft" into the search box in archive.org and click the second option down (search text contents) before searching, 2 books will be retrieved, each with a brief reference. 

Likewise in Google Books - keep the quotation marks in the search to search for the terms as a phrase. This retrieves four references to Denton raft (and one to Denton float) - one at least of the four being a duplicate of the archive.org search.

[petermuir]

47 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

A search on the 'net turns up info for modellers, references to HMS Hood and a photo of electricians at IWM - they seemed much smaller than Carley floats - but I couldn't find any further background info on them.

M

Thanks Matlock1418. I've been down the modellers and HMS Hood route. I contacted the Hood organisation but to date have not received a reply. There was a photo on the Hood site which identified Denton floats but very poor quality. Have you a reference for the IWM photo?

[petermuir]

49 minutes ago, pete-c said:

I was recently searching for the utilization of a particular piece of equipment (which I could not identify) attached to the superstructure of a vessel.  On looking through a 1937 Manual of Seamanship I came across the attached.  Although more to do with 'man overboard' situations it may be something that you find interesting.

Thank you for this peter-c. Much appreciated.

 

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, petermuir said:

Have you a reference for the IWM photo?

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205203849

The space marked by chalk is for a float!

M

47 minutes ago, pete-c said:

On looking through a 1937 Manual of Seamanship I came across the attached.  Although more to do with 'man overboard' situations it may be something that you find interesting.

Interesting, even if a bit late for our period.

I loved the F Receptacles for Whistle and Refreshment = Refreshments? - Biscuits sir? [to go with your seawater I presume] - Just whistle? ;-)

M

[petermuir]

Thanks M.

[petermuir]

37 minutes ago, seaJane said:

if you enter "Denton raft" into the search box in archive.org and click the second option down (search text contents) before searching, 2 books will be retrieved, each with a brief reference.

"Taking off my shoes I went into the water and swam to a Denton raft, virtually a piece of cork about 18in x 18ins with ropes on each side, where, with two shipmates, I held on to one of the ropes p199

Destroyer down : an account of HM destroyer losses, 1939-1945
by Evans, A. S. (Arthur S.), d. 1994.

Thanks SeaJane.

 

[pete-c]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205203849

The space marked by chalk is for a float!

M

Interesting, even if a bit late for our period.

I loved the F Receptacles for Whistle and Refreshment = Refreshments? - Biscuits sir? [to go with your seawater I presume] - Just whistle? ;-)

M

Admittedly M, this illustration is from a 1937 publication but the vessel I am studying, and to which two of these buoys were attached, is from the 1914-18 period.  It would be interesting to know when this particular type of life saving apparatus was first introduced.

 

[pete-c]

Answering my own question ...   

https://ontheslipway.com/night-life-buoy/

So, it seems they were around pre WW1.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, pete-c said:

https://ontheslipway.com/night-life-buoy/

So, it seems they were around pre WW1.

Night life buoys - Interesting.  I am most impressed - apparently the refreshments were a spirit ration!

M

[Talesofaseadog]

This is a picture of USS Narragansett aground on Bembridge Ledge in 1919 with some floats (probably Carley) clearly visible.

The ship had been transporting up to 1400 troops each trip to France and back, and was festooned with many of these.

The second picture is HMS Mystic that ran aground on a convoy run top of Northern Ireland where a couple of floats are also visible.

The only other WW1 ship I have details of is HMS Racer's conversion to RFA Salvage Vessel and there is no mention of any floats in the refit specification, possibly ships that had enough boats for the whole crew did not carry such a thing then.

Tony

[Talesofaseadog]

One other aspect I have found for this time in life saving from ships is the collapsible lifeboat or pontoon lifeboat which may be of interest.

Many passenger ships like the Titanic and the like carried these to save space.

Tony

[KizmeRD]

Unless there’s an earlier version, the Spanner raft life saving apparatus was first patented in USA in 1942 - so l guess it wasn’t yet in use during WW1.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/d9/3e/42/f40bd55c4962e1/US2344652.pdf

MB

[petermuir]

5 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Unless there’s an earlier version, the Spanner raft life saving apparatus was first patented in USA in 1942 - so l guess it wasn’t yet in use during WW1.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/d9/3e/42/f40bd55c4962e1/US2344652.pdf

MB

KizmeRD  

You have proved conclusively that a Spanner raft was not a WW1 item. Thank you.

Thank you for that.

[petermuir]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

Unless there’s an earlier version, the Spanner raft life saving apparatus was first patented in USA in 1942 - so l guess it wasn’t yet in use during WW1

Hi K,

What led you to search the American Patent Office for the Spanner raft?

I wonder if a similar search of the American/British patent  would provide more info regarding the dating of the Denton float?

Once again thank you for your interest and support.

[Talesofaseadog]

I have been looking at the SOLAS 1914 which can be read here. Saving Of Lives At Sea.

https://iiif.lib.harvard.edu/manifests/view/drs:7699832$1i

All this came from the Titanic disaster and has lifesaving equipment rules with some notes about equipment but no specifics.

Unfortunately only the US appear to have implimented SOLAS 1914 by the start of WW1. This may have a bearing on the success of the Carley float.

Probably the Admiralty followed our Board of Trade (BOT) rules which were pretty poor.

It looks like SOLAS 1914 was implemented during WW1 and that is why the floats were on HMS Mystic towards the end of WW1.

I hope this is of some help.

Tony

 

[KizmeRD]

On 18/01/2022 at 23:30, petermuir said:

What led you to search the American Patent Office for the Spanner raft?

I wonder if a similar search of the American/British patent  would provide more info regarding the dating of the Denton float?

 

The only reason for searching American Patent Office for Spanner Raft was that it was known to be designed by a U.S. citizen and I thought there might be a chance of chasing down the date when the device first made an appearance by checking the Patent application.

Denton (biscuit) floats on the other hand were basic three foot square buoyancy aids with loops of tarred rope round the edges - providing men in the water with something to hang on to. Unfortunately they weren’t really big enough to clamber on to and eventually, when hypothermia set in, the poor survivor would simply loose grasp of the grab line, float away and drown. I believe that these floats are named after Major G.P. Denton, Royal Field Artillery (Geoffrey Price Denton) who was working at the War Office at the time. The army needed buoyant rafts of this kind for all the troop transports (which were carrying far more men than they were originally designed for, and therefore didn’t have sufficient lifeboat capacity). I understand that they were manufactured in East Meon, near Petersfield (Hants) and were supplied to ships in large numbers during the Great War.

MB

Edited 20 January , 2022 by KizmeRD

[seaJane]

Wrong war, sorry, but is this a Denton float?

(Philip Zec cartoon from the Daily Mirror,.1942: caption, '"The price of petrol has been increased by one penny. --Official")

Edited 20 January , 2022 by seaJane

[KizmeRD]

Jane, the illustration looks to be more rectangular than square and so I’d say no, not a Denton raft. 
I will try and post a more detailed illustration, if I can find one.

MB

Found it! - Take a look here, albeit on deck stacked and stored (although, could be the US equivalent of a Denton).

https://archive.org/details/roadtofrancetran02crow/page/n149/mode/2up

Edited 20 January , 2022 by KizmeRD

[seaJane]

Thank you!