Help required to identifying the regiment of the soldier in this photograph

[Flying Officer Parry]

Hei,

 

I have been researching the military past of my grandfather Harold Norman Percival Parry (born Canterbury, 1901) who joined the Tank Corp after the Great War in 1919 and transferred to the Indian Army Ordnance Corp in 1926. Amongst many family photographs of him, there is one that we can not identify, since the insignia on the cap and belt do not match either of the units with which he served.

 

We have an earlier photograph of his father John William Parry (born Canterbury approx 1860) in 1912 in the uniform of a Drum Major in the Buffs (Terr).

 

The photograph in question (taken in Canterbury) may be of one of my grandfathers’ elder brothers who served in the war, either Horace William Gordon Parry (born Canterbury 1895 – might actually be 30 Dec 1894) or Albert Victor Parry (born Canterbury 25 May 1890). They were thought to have served in a Kent regiment – possibly the Buffs, but the insignia do not appear to be the typical of the Buffs.

 

I would appreciate all and any help in correctly identifying the regiment, so that I can research the war diaries to learn more of his service and pre-post war career. I would also be interested to know more about the piece of equipment that is slung from his belt, just visible below his left arm, as it does not look like the grip of a typical 1907 pattern bayonet.

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Flying Office Parry

[FROGSMILE]

A London Regiment battalion I believe (erstwhile regions of Kent and other satellite counties found themselves inside the “County of London” after boundary changes led to its creation).  

It requires a better quality scan of his cap badge to make a unit ID.  Another strong possibility is one of the TF battalions of the line regiments that had rifles lineage and retained connected dress and insignia idiosyncrasies.

The cap insignia and buttons are black and mark the rifle unit identity, there might also be a patch of cloth (commonly red) behind his cap badge, and lastly he is wearing an obsolescent waist belt clasp that would also confirm his unit.

Edited 10 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[mancpal]

I think the item of kit you indicate is his bayonet.

Simon

[Michelle Young]

Looks like there might be a bugle on the buttons? And the red felt behind the badge? 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Looks like there might be a bugle on the buttons? And the red felt behind the badge? 

Yes agreed, sorry I was still editing.

2 minutes ago, mancpal said:

I think the item of kit you indicate is his bayonet.

Simon

Yes, traditional wear for a sergeant when walking out of barracks.  It had originally been all ranks but following some brawls in the street that led to fatalities this was protested about in Parliament.  A compromise was reached whereby only sergeants would retain the practice, with the exception of the Foot Guards who were exempted for a variety of reasons.

Edited 10 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

I’m wondering if it might be the Church Lads Brigade, who formed a Cadet Battalion of the King’s Royal Rifle Corps with unique insignia.  You can read about them here: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/169412-church-lads-brigade-clb-badges/

An adult battalion was also formed, initially from former CLB cadets, the 16th, but unlike the cadet battalion they wore standard regimental insignia.

Buttons for both were of standard rifles pattern.

Edited 11 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[mancpal]

So knife crime isn’t an entirely new phenomena !
Is the CLB connection to do with his belt? Although never a member as a child I did own one of their belts which bears similarities.

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, mancpal said:

So knife crime isn’t an entirely new phenomena !
Is the CLB connection to do with his belt? Although never a member as a child I did own one of their belts which bears similarities.

Simon

Yes it is, I’m just looking for an image.  See below.

I think this confirms that he is one of the ‘senior boys’ who furnished the sergeants in the CLB Cadet Battalion KRRC.  Once an adult he would have moved on.

Edited 10 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[mancpal]

About the belt or knife crime?

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, mancpal said:

About the belt or knife crime?

Simon

Belt!  I don’t think the GWF would permit an image of knife crime.

Edited 10 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

18 minutes ago, Flying Officer Parry said:

Horace William Gordon Parry (born Canterbury 1895 – might actually be 30 Dec 1894)

May be a co-incidence but there is a Medal Index Card, (MiC), for a Private 2015 Horace Parry, 4th Battalion East Kent Regiment, subsequently renumbered in the 1917 TF exercise to 200394. First landed in the Seistan Theatre of War, (Code 5e on his MiC), on the 5th August 1915. I don't have a subscription but a search for "2015" and "East Kent" in the military records section of FindMyPast brings up surviving service records for a Horace Parry born Canterbury c1894.

The MiC shows highest rank served in a Theatre of War, so if he was only promoted Sergeant on his return to the UK or post armistice, this wouldn't be reflected on the MiC.

He is shown as being "Disembodied", (i.e. a Territorial Force man who has been stood down from full time service) on the 10th May 1919, so survived the confict.

Hopefully there will be enough in the surviving service records to rule him in or out of consideration.

Cheers,
Peter

[ss002d6252]

2 hours ago, PRC said:

I don't have a subscription but a search for "2015" and "East Kent" in the military records section of FindMyPast brings up surviving service records for a Horace Parry born Canterbury c1894.

Enlistment details given in August 1914


Craig

[FROGSMILE]

@Flying Officer Parryseems to have become struck dumb…

[Flying Officer Parry]

Many thanks for all the feedback

[Flying Officer Parry]

Thanks again everyone for the feedback and the observations about the buttons and the insights into wearing bayonets, if it is an obsolete pattern, i'd be keen to learn more about the possible make.

So once an adult, he would have transferred directly into the KRRC or could he have signed on into the "family (his father's)" regiment of the Buffs?

Or the other "family" regiment, would be of his grandfather -  the only other photograph that we have of a relative is dated about 1902 and all we know from the handwriting on the back that it is Grandfather Dobson (with beard), Pioneer Sergeant in the Volunteers

cheers

[Michelle Young]

That looks a bit like the Rifle Brigade badge. @FROGSMILEwill be able to confirm.

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, Flying Officer Parry said:

Thanks again everyone for the feedback and the observations about the buttons and the insights into wearing bayonets, if it is an obsolete pattern, i'd be keen to learn more about the possible make.

So once an adult, he would have transferred directly into the KRRC or could he have signed on into the "family (his father's)" regiment of the Buffs?

Or the other "family" regiment, would be of his grandfather -  the only other photograph that we have of a relative is dated about 1902 and all we know from the handwriting on the back that it is Grandfather Dobson (with beard), Pioneer Sergeant in the Volunteers

cheers

Once an adult he would have left the cadets and it’s impossible to say which unit he joined subsequently, just because he was a cadet with the CLB it did not obligate him to join the KRRC.

The bayonet (known to riflemen, including cadets as a sword) is probably of the pattern that could be fitted to the obsolescent Martini Henry that was still issued to many cadets at that time. 

The latest photo shows auxiliary part-timers - citizen soldiers of a Rifle Volunteer Corps that would have been close by the family home.  Each unit had one, or more drill-halls and/or drill-stations (the former dedicated buildings, and the latter a shared facility like a town hall or school), where the volunteers reported for training weekly.  They were largely a combined shooting and social club.

NB.  Notice the 4-pointed ‘proficiency star’ above the stripes of the man front right.  These were only worn by the volunteer force.  It’s possible that your subject may have joined the direct linear successor unit, that would have been a battalion of the Territorial Force (TF) after 1908.

Edited 11 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

The 6th Kent Rifle Volunteer Corps was formed in Canterbury on the 6th December 1859. It was subsequently formed with several other Kent R.V.C.'s into the 4th Administration Battalion, Kent Rifle Volunteers, which consisted of the following R.V.C.'s;-

5th Kent R.V.C. formed 1/12/1859 Canterbury 

6th Kent R.V.C. formed 6/12/1859 Canterbury 

16th Kent R.V.C. formed 15/2/1860 Sittingbourne

24th Kent R.V.C. formed 29/2/1860 Ash - disbanded 1869

29th Kent R.V.C. formed 15/3/1860 Ashford

36th Kent R.V.C. formed 18/5/1860 Wingham

From this point it becomes a very complex history with amalgamations and re-organisation, with some units ending up as Volunteer Battalions (VB) of the Buffs and some as Volunteer Battalions of the Queen’s Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment.  In 1908 another reorganisation led to the VBs becoming instead consecutively numbered battalions of their regiment, but administered by the new Territorial Force (TF).

NB.  Looking at the uniforms in your photo I suspect that they were at that particular stage a VB of the Buffs.  See: http://www.machadoink.com/Military2.htm

Edited 10 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Flying Officer Parry]

Wow! many many thanks for sharing your knowledge, this will help immensely in my researches, i would never have been able to figure this out by myself, cheers

[PRC]

5 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Enlistment details given in August 1914
 

The occupants of 44 Stour Street, Canterbury, (the place of abode given by Horace on his enlistment), appear to be the right Parry family on the 1911 Census of England & Wales.

Head of the family was John William Parry, aged 47 and a Tannery Foreman. He lives there with his wife of 22 years, Annie Parry. The marriage has produced 7 children of which 6 were then still alive. All six were then unmarried and still living at home. They were Albert, (21, Assistant Foreman in a Tannery), Horace, (16, Laundry assistant), Florence, (13), Harold, (9), Ronald, (7) and Doris, (4). All the family members were born Canterbury.

Cheers,
Peter

[Flying Officer Parry]

MAny thanks Peter, cheers

[FROGSMILE]

On 11/01/2022 at 09:17, Flying Officer Parry said:

MAny thanks Peter, cheers

It’s hard for us to imagine now but the Church Lads Brigade (CLB) cadet battalions of the KRRC were a part of the semi militarisation of many youth organisations between the 2nd Boer War and WW1.  

The CLB joined the Territorial Force Cadet Association in 1911 and through it received some funding (a big draw) and uniforms. It’s interesting to think that the TF would have had to contract for a substantial number of small sized service dress uniforms for boys, or provide cash to purchase them directly.  

The CLB were specifically Anglicans and aligned directly with the Churches of England and Ireland, unlike the Boys Brigade (BB), which was interdenominational**.  Consequently the CLB detachments across the nation were related to the diocese of the Anglican church in the area where the boys lived.  Ergo in the case of your family you need to find out which church they attended for Christian worship to pursue this further.

** All of which reflected a then popular credo of muscular Christianity.  As an example see: https://www.rushdenheritage.co.uk/Villages/HF/HF-church-lads-brigade.html

NB. There was additionally a Catholic Boys Brigade (CBB) that was also uniformed at that time.  Most of the boys organisations gradually abandoned their quasi military affinity from the mid 1920s onward, as funding from a much straitened War Office dried up (totally withdrawn in 1930), and the influence of anti-military peace movements increasingly gained traction as a reflection of the national grief following WW1.

Edited 13 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Flying Officer Parry]

Wow, many thanks FROGSMILE, you and your fellow responders are an absolute gold mines of information!

i will definitely check out the Anglican church where he was baptised (St Alphege, Canterbury), to find out more - given everything that has been posted in response to my queries, i now think that the original photo is that of my grandfather, and not one of his brothers, as my cousin and i first suspected. 

tusen takk!

skål!

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, Flying Officer Parry said:

Wow, many thanks FROGSMILE, you and your fellow responders are an absolute gold mines of information!

i will definitely check out the Anglican church where he was baptised (St Alphege, Canterbury), to find out more - given everything that has been posted in response to my queries, i now think that the original photo is that of my grandfather, and not one of his brothers, as my cousin and i first suspected. 

tusen takk!

skål!

I wish you good luck.  It was over 100 hundred years ago now and some diocese have retained records, even if only fragmentary, whereas others have not, or no longer exist because they have fallen foul of the decline in church attendance since WW2.

[PRC]

4 hours ago, Flying Officer Parry said:

i will definitely check out the Anglican church where he was baptised (St Alphege, Canterbury), to find out more

The 1901 Census of England & Wales shows that Stour Street, Canterbury, fell within the ecclesiastical parish of St Mary de Castro - the 1911 Census didn't contain that information. In fact it's misleading - St Mary de Castro fell into disrepair in the 1500's and was absorbed into the Parish of St Mildreds.

Of course that doesn't mean the Parry's worshiped in their parish church as they may have retained an affection for St. Alphege - or any other church in the city. Nor does it mean that the young Parry attend the Church Lad's Brigade at either. This thread from 2013 on the South East History Boards is stated to include a picture of the St. Stephen's Church Lads Brigade, 1st Battalion Canterbury Regiment from 1902 - presumably you have to be a member to see the picture! http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?PHPSESSID=45bb10a91f61d151c9d0f14f4528f8ac&topic=5470.0;nowap

I would suggest you also check out those surviving service records of Horace Parry to see if he is the right man. If nothing else there may be reference to his stated religious denomination which might confirm CofE is the right path to be exploring.

Cheers,
Peter