Help interpreting a medal index record

[molydeii]

Dear everyone,

There is a medal index card I kindly ask some help interpreting it. The handwriting is even not very readable for me, all I can make from it is Royal (Scottish?) Fusiliers and his rank was Private.  I have his War and Civtory medals and the cardcboard box, the regimental number engraved on the medals is 266238. There seems to be no information when, where and for how long did he serve on his index card.  Can anyone help with it? Where else can I look for more information about this gentleman?  

I'm also attaching the whole .pdf page I found from Uk's online National Archives, but I believe the other Finches that were mentionen on the  page are different persons.  I appreiciate any kind of help and thank you all. 

 

 

 you

Medal Index Card.pdf

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Herbert W Finch, Private #266238 Royal Scots Fusiliers.

Awarded the British War and Victory Medal.

The medal index card only showed information that was relevant to its purpose, hence why dates of service aren't shown on it.

Craig

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The medal roll, to which the card is an index, shows that he was with the 11th Bn in France.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_611411_5583-00312?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=f18bf54837d889fb4a3e556403cd2fda&usePUB=true&_phsrc=NBE177&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=3006503

His 6 digit number is in a range allocated to 5th RSF so, at some point, he was numbered to the 5th Bn (that may have been an administrative service only).
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

Craig

[molydeii]

Thank you Craig! I've atatched a .pdf file with several other Finch surname persons. I believe they're different people, not the same person? (please forgive my ignorence. I am not used to reading this kind of records and English isn't my native tongue).

[TEW]

The 266238 number is allocated to the 11th Bn.?

According to the Long Long Trail the 11th were formed in January 1917 and went to France in May 1918.

Depending on when he joined up he should have an earlier four digit number which was changed to 266238 around spring of 1917.

TEW

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The other cards are for different men. They just saved space by scanning multiple cards to the same page (which understandably confuses a lot of people).

Looking at other soldiers for help, we can see that #266232 was posted to the 11th RSF on 18 April 1917, as was #266258. This means it is likely that Finch joined the 11th Bn on the same date as part of a draft of men.
 
Both of the above-mentioned men in the draft, who were numbered either side of him, came from 3/4 Queen Royal West Surrey regiment, so it's likely Finch was also part of this same bulk movement of men.

Craig

[molydeii]

Here is what I found on Wikipedia about 3/4 Queen Royal West Surrey Regiment.  It seems like until Mid-June, they were a sort of reserve unit stayed in England. At some point in 1917, they were merged with some 12th Battalion but I think Mr. Finch was already with RSF when this happened. 

 

3/4th Battalion
The residue of the 2/4th Battalion continued in 200th (2/1st Surrey) Bde in 67th (2nd Home Counties) Division until it was redesignated 3/4th Bn and reformed at Windsor in June 1915. Training for 67th (HC) Division was hampered by the lack of modern arms and equipment: at first there were only .256-in Japanese Ariska rifles, until these were replaced with obsolete Mk I Lee-Enfield rifles in November 1915. By then the battalion had taken its place as part of Second Army, Central Force, in home defence, with 200th Bde quartered around Reigate and Redhill, Surrey. A year later it was in Kent, with 200th Bde around Westbere and Gore Street. Twice the division was ordered to prepare for service in Ireland and in April 1917 to prepare to join the BEF in France. However, none of these moves came off, and in the end 3/4th Queen's left the division and went to France independently.

Western Front
The battalion disembarked at Le Havre on 1 June 1917. It was first attached to the 1st South African Brigade in 9th (Scottish) Division until 23 July, then with 12th (Eastern) Division, finally joining 62nd Brigade in 21st Division on 9 August.

21st Division was engaged in the Battle of Polygon Wood on 29 September, but the inexperienced 3/4th Queen's did not make its first attack until the Battle of Broodseinde on 4 October. Despite the general success of the limited attack the battalion lost nearly half its strength.The division was then sent in as reinforcements to try to stem the devastating series of German counter-attacks that ended the Battle of Cambrai on 2–3 December 1917.

Disbandment
By now the BEF was suffering a critical manpower shortage, and on 11 February 1918 3/4th Queen's was disbanded. A large draft was sent to reinforce 7th Queen's serving in 18th (Eastern) Division while the transport went to 8th Division. The residue of the battalion went to 20th Entrenching Bn, which carried out railway construction but was sucked into the fighting during the German Spring Offensive.

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3 minutes ago, molydeii said:

Here is what I found on Wikipedia about 3/4 Queen Royal West Surrey Regiment.  It seems like until Mid-June, they were a sort of reserve unit stayed in England. At some point in 1917, they were merged with some 12th Battalion but I think Mr. Finch was already with RSF when this happened.

He was with the 3/4th QRWS only until April 1917, when he was posted to the 11th Bn RSF.

Quote

11th Battalion
Formed on 1 January 1917 from what had previously been the 11th Scottish Provisional Battalion of the TF. It had been formed in June 1915 from “Home Service only” personnel.
27 April 1918 : became a Garrison Guard Bn and went to France 5 May 1918. (The designation was dropped in July 1918).
12 May 1918 : came under orders of 178th Brigade, 59th (2nd North Midland) Division.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-royal-scots-fusiliers-in-1914-1918/

It looks like he went overseas with the 11th Bn so probably in May 1918.

Craig

[molydeii]

And probably stayed there until the Armstice and came back to his home alive. So he started as a home guard / some kind of reserve infantry and went to France at the later months of the war. 

On the Long Long Trail webpage, there is a RSF gravestone depiced with a very close regimental number that Mr. Finch has. I suppsoe it's not very likely to find his 3/4 QRWS service number from the National Archives website, but I will try if I can find something.

Thank you very much Craig & TEW for your help. It's very good to have information about Mr. Finch, as he's not as anonymous as he used to be to me now.

Edited 15 December , 2021 by molydeii

[TEW]

There is a war diary for 11th RSF. It's available for free from TNA. Register with them and you can download it.

If it's handwritten it may be terrible. At least you'll get some idea of where the battalion was and any action they were involved in. Very unlikely to mention Finch by name but occasionally people have luck.

TEW

 

[molydeii]

Thank you TEW. I think I am registered to the TNA website. I'll download and check what had the 11th Battalion experienced in France, as much as I can decipher British handwriting from previous century. I also found some documents about a Herbert William Finch, I think he was 37 years old in 1916, and his employer applied on his behalf to not to be drafted into the army. I don't know if they are same person with the medal card, but maybe his reserve status and him being in a home guard battalion may be explained with those documents. 

MH-47-77-76.pdf BT-351-1-44755.pdf

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11 minutes ago, molydeii said:

I don't know if they are same person with the medal card, but maybe his reserve status and him being in a home guard battalion may be explained with those documents. 

It could certainly explain why his entrance to service was delayed - do you know anything else about his family details that might allow us to narrow him down and work out if it is him ?

Craig

[molydeii]

Yes indeed! The appeal document may explain why he went into the war late & as well as he isn't that young when the war started. I believe the other document with the mercantile medal mention isn't Pte. Mr. Finch.

TWE - Thank you for the link! I've downlaoded it. The handwriting isn't as bad as I thought it may be. Soem parts are even typewritten, specially after November 1918.  I've quickly glanced onto it after the downlaod and I see between August and September, the battalion has seen some heavy artilelry fire. There are some terms there I cannot quite understand. 

Sadly I don't have anything else about him.  All of the documents and information I have are those two that I found from TNA.  I'm checking TNA and trying to reach to census information. In his appeal document, there is a homa and work address listed, all around Greater London if I'm not mistaken (Uxbridge?). Maybe I can find some more with that. If the electrician Mr. Finch is the same person with the reserve solider Mr. Finch, then it is safe to say he was born around 1878-1880. 

Edited 16 December , 2021 by molydeii

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2 hours ago, molydeii said:

 I believe the other document with the mercantile medal mention isn't Pte. Mr. Finch.

I'd agree that is most likely.

Craig

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I suspect this is the man in the appeal file - his full name was William Herbert Finch (although the census only has William - marriage details show the middle name).

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=NBE185&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=2352&gsfn=william herbert&gsln=finch&cp=0&msrpn__ftp=hillingdon, middlesex, england, united kingdom&msrpn=1671186&new=1&rank=1&uidh=784&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=0&h=39447360&recoff=&ml_rpos=1&queryId=62898ad28488347760622e26898ea09e

Craig

[molydeii]

Craig, thats awesome! If Mr Plumber Finch and Mr. Pte. Finsh are the same person, there is a lot of detail on his 1911 census. Wish the army had some address or birth date of him listed somewhere.  It really is very good to put some details to a man who had some hard times drafted in the war, like almost every other person, and long dead now. I kind of tend to think his soul, wherever he is, would be happy being rememebred somehow.  I googled the address on 1911 census, that one might be the house he used to live. Its North of Heathrow Airport and east of University of Brunell. I'd been around that vicinity several times around 2008-2011. 

I've downlaoded the war diary that TNG advised me to take a look. Its 100 pages and I can quickly overlook if something about him is recoded here. So far I have seen soem aerial atatcks resulting a few dead and lotys of artillery fire, so even though 11th Battalion joined war at a later stage, they seem to had their share of battle.

 

Below is the house recorded on 1911 Census

Edited 16 December , 2021 by molydeii

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 15/12/2021 at 11:38, molydeii said:

There is a medal index card I kindly ask some help interpreting it.

You can download it free and in colour from Ancestry here (You only need to register and create a free account):

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/5305723:1262?_phsrc=jpv299&_phstart=successSource&ml_rpos=10&queryId=814b1c5d96ef932bff09fd03f53144e2

[molydeii]

Everyone, especially Craig, thank you ever so much for your kind help to me about finding some information about Mr. Finch. It's very nice that I now know more than before about him. I've been reading the war diary that TNG suggested me to. Most of the handwriting is readable, and seems like even though 11th Btln joined teh war at a later stage, they still seem to had seen their share of action. Once again, thank you for everyone's help. I'm grateful.

[kenf48]

On 16/12/2021 at 10:44, molydeii said:

so even though 11th Battalion joined war at a later stage, they seem to had their share of battle.

 

As noted above they were originally formed as a 'Garrison Guard' Battalion in May 1918 from home service men who were in Category B as regards their physical fitness.  In other words often older, less fit men who were given the assurance they would not be used for front line fighting.

The 'Garrison Guard' Battalions were primarily placed in reconstituted Divisions, specifically the 40th the 59th (South Midland) Divisions, both of which had suffered many losses in the battles of the German Spring Offensive which began on 21st March 1918.  Their purpose was initially defined as following up the front line Divisions and holding any ground gained, and reinforcing those positions.

Of course anywhere on the Western Front was vulnerable to artillery and aerial attacks, and later still they participated in limited action initiated by their respective Divisions, my interest is the 40th.  The 'Garrison Guard' designation was dropped by all these newly formed Battalions in June 1918 a few weeks after they had landed in France.

You are fortunate in that the deliberations of the Appeal Tribunal for Middlesex is one of a handful that have survived.

The documents you have posted show that he enlisted/attested under the Derby or Group Scheme in or around November/December 1915.

He was placed in Group 42, that is a married man born 1879  see:-

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/#:~:text=Call up under the Derby Scheme began%3A Groups,summoned under conscription under the Military Service Act.

It appears when called up the default position was to appeal to the Local Tribunal for exemption from Military Service, you will see from the above link he was due to be mobilised in June 1916.  In May he made application to the Local Tribunal where neither the military representative, nor the Tribunal supported his application and he was not granted an exemption. 

He appealed to the Appeal Tribunal, gaining the support of his employer, and they granted a six month exemption on 'hardship' grounds, as defined in the Military Service Act, in June 1916 provided he joined the VTC which was a common condition laid down by the Tribunals.  The Appeal Tribunal ordered the Local Tribunal to issue a certificate of exemption from military service. 

Therefore he was not eligible for mobilisation until December 1916 at the earliest.  As there was no further correspondence and this date coincided with the 'manpower crisis' of January 1917 it seems unlikely any further exemption was granted. When he was mobilised he would be given a medical, and his subsequent posting to a Garrrison Guard Battalion shows he was probably placed in Category C for Home Service, initially in the the 3/4 Queen's.  Later upgraded to B (either due to military experience or expediency) when posted to the RSF on the 18th April 1918 and the BEF.

The service record of a Pte 5071 3/4 Queen's G/39082 then 202409 4th Queens/ 266232 RSF Titterton (finally Labour Corps 441541)  has survived which shows the men in the 3/4 were examined on the 17 February 1917 by a Travelling Medical Board at Margate and placed in category C1 , at a later examination he was moved into B3 and finally in March 1918 B2 which enables a posting to the 11th RSF 18th April 1918.  Although not shown on the record my guess is he went from the 3/4 to the 4th Queen's. 

Also 266258 Freeman had a six digit Queen's number 202688 (4th Bn)  Your man may have had a four digit number but he would only have held that for a short period, the six digit numbers were allocated in March 1917.  Both Freeman and Titterton were not allocated the RSF number until they transferred from the Queens in April 1918.

Freeman died in the influenza pandemic whilst serving with the Labour Corps. 

Just for completeness and to 'bracket' your man in the draft from the home service element of the 3/4th to the 11th RSF there are also records extant for Pte266222 Marchant. 

 

 

[molydeii]

Kenf48, unlike the British private in your signature, I am very impressed by the information you have provided! Thank you so much for posting that! It is amazing to be able to connect the dots and put an actual identity, some kind of true story behind Mr. Finch. I'm now assuming he is the same person with the Electrician Mr. Finch whose appeal record I was able to pull out from TNA.  As Craig and one another member suggested, the appeal seems to be the reason why he was posted overseas late. 

English isn't my native tongue, I was unable to understand your last sentence, what does it mean? 

"Just for completeness and to 'bracket' your man in the draft from the home service element of the 3/4th to the 11th RSF there are also records extant for Pte266222 Marchant."

Unlike Freeman, he seems to have survived. I wasn't able tofind any death records for him.  Is there any way to find it using TNA? Now I seem to have his birth date, it might be nice to find his death date and perhaps where his grave is. Any thoughts?

Edited 21 December , 2021 by molydeii

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, molydeii said:

English isn't my native tongue, I was unable to understand your last sentence, what does it mean? 

Simply that these men were not transferred singly from the 3/4th Queens to other regiments in this instance the 11th RSF.  It is always useful to find numbers either side of the man you are researching to 'bracket i.e. ( )' or include in the draft.  Therefore if we look at the numbers

266222 transferred from 3/4 Queen's to 11 RSF 18 April 1918

266232 transferred from 3/4 Queen's to 11 RSF 18 April 1918

266238 no surviving record

266258 transferred from 3/4 Queen's to 11 RSF 18 April 1918

By placing the number within the draft there is a high degree of certainty Pte Finch transferred on the same date when the number block was issued.  Unfortunately it does not help with any previous numbers as all the men listed above were posted to the 3/4 Queens on different dates and there is no sequence we can draw similar conclusions from.

As an aside when Haig inspected the 'Garrison Guard' Battalions of the 40th Division shortly after their arrival in France he was very impressed by their turnout and appearance - there is no reason to think that it was any different among the 11th RSF and their comrades in the 59th Division.

 

PS I would never have known English isn't your native tongue -apologies for being obtuse - again! 

 

 

 

[TEW]

I'm fairly confident that William H Finch is in Uxbridge on the 1939 register with wife Alma Harriet Finch. He is a plumber.  Date of birth 18/2/1878.

A possible death index entry led me to a probate record for William Herbert Finch who died 7/3/1953. Address is the same as in 1939. Probate granted to Alma & William Arthur Finch also a plumber.

TEW

[TEW]

There is also a photograph of (I presume) William and Alma on an Ancestry family tree. No date for the photo.

TEW

[molydeii]

kenf48, no worries about that. You aren't being obtuse.  I thank you for the information you provided about the battalion and interpreting what those terms actually mean. Thank you for shedding a light on something that's been quite dark to me. I have been reading the war diary of 11th btln, with a slim hope of Mr. Finch being mentioned there, I'm red about first 30 pages without finding anything about him. TEW told me that it's unlikely he'll be mentined there by name but still it's nice to read it to learn about what kind of a life the Battalion had while in France.

TEW - Thank you! Now I have the birth and death dates. I think thit's very likely that Mr Plumber Finch is the same guy as Mr Pte. Finch.  Is there any way you can post the picture here or somewhere so that I can see his face?

 

[FROGSMILE]

I just wanted to say what an interesting thread this has been.  It stands as an exemplar of the military oriented, genealogical skills of its contributors, for whom kudos is well deserved.  
Overall, it’s struck me how the story of Mr Finch epitomises the experience of so many, very ordinary, older men, swept up by the mass conscription that historically was an unusual thing in Britain when compared with the continental nations, where it was traditional.  It also evokes how well organised the institutions of state had become after 4-years of war, with the establishment of tribunals, appeals processes, and multi layered grading of troops into classifications according to age and medical fitness.  It shows how Britain had been compelled to organise for all-out, industrialised war, with the result that the nation had, in effect, become an armed camp, with shades of military khaki, and naval blue seen everywhere, alongside the many civil volunteers and nursing staff.  This thread has put a very human face on the affairs of that time.

For @kenf48: I was very intrigued to learn of Haig being impressed by an inspection of Garrison Guard battalions in the 40th Division.  Do you know if that comment was extracted from Divisional records, or was it from Haig’s personal papers?

NB.  It was interesting to see how Private Finch was gradually elevated from Class C1 to B2 to B, which suggests perhaps a combination of improved health and fitness gained from a life of military routine (the calorific intake from Army rations was far better than most working men experienced prewar), and a less demanding criterion accepted by the Army due to the losses of 1917-1918.

Edited 25 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE