Background reading on Irish Command

[ddycher]

All

Anybody have some pointers on good background reading for Irish Command 1918 ~ 1919. Have been stumbling around but have yet to find a concise overview on what was happening in the command during the period. Can any one help with some guidance ?

regards

Dave

[ddycher]

Anybody any ideas on how to proceed looking for more details on understanding Irish Command in the period. Exhausted all my normal sources. 

regards

Dave

[JasonMc]

I'd imagine if anything related to that time up to 1922 would have been in the Dublin Castle records?

They are now in Kew - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5093

I'm not aware of any books with a good overview of the castle records from that year apart from the obvious books on the Easter Rising era and War of Independence etc but not necessarily the specifics of what you are asking

Edited 15 January , 2022 by JasonMc

[ddycher]

Thanks Jason.
Been through the National Archives but not finding the Irish Command records. Not sure what I am missing. Will give it another go.

thanks

Dave

 

[Airshipped]

Hi Dave,

Here's an example from 1922, i.e. routine material re the evacuation. (This is from WO 35/93A, a file marked '12/170', but the box contained Brigade war diaries numbered from '12/171' to '12/185' or so). 

From what I gather, quite an amount of HQ material was torched in June/July 1921 prior to the handover.

The 1918/1919 material is not completely entombed in Kew. Either FMP or Ancestry digitized a tonne of material a few years ago. I don't have occasion to visit it much but the material relates to everything from daily routine orders to court martial cases, albeit much of it dating to 1920 from what I recall. 

[ddycher]

Thanks Airshipped. Think I have been looking in the wrong place. Will follow the file numbers you ref and try again. Many thanks

Dave

[corisande]

On 16/01/2022 at 21:53, Airshipped said:

The 1918/1919 material is not completely entombed in Kew. Either FMP or Ancestry digitized a tonne of material a few years ago.

 

FmP has quite a lot

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/easter-rising-and-ireland-under-martial-law-1916-1921

if, for example you type in "court martial" on that page, you get this

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?datasetname=easter+rising+%26+ireland+under+martial+law+1916-1921&sid=103&keywords=court+martial

It is a sort of Lucky Dip/Pandoras Box and you never quite know what you will find

[ddycher]

Thanks Corisande

Confess I am not making much progress here. Coming across bits and pieces but I am lacking a big picture context. Trying to understand the Military organisation in Londonderry and Randalstown in 1918 and 1919. Failing miserably.

Regards

Dave

[Carmania]

How about one of Charles Townshend's books - 'The British Campaign in Ireland 1919-1921' or perhaps this one by Peter Hart 'The IRA and it's enemies'?

Regards

Aled

[ddycher]

Thanks Aled. Locating a copy now. My focus is more on the organization of British forces rather than on the activities of the IRA itself. That said every little helps and I appreciate the lead.

Regards

Dave

[Margaretnolan]

@ddycher
 

I have extracts from 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment history, 1914-1922.
 

And I also have “Digest of Services” for the 1st Bn. The Manchester Regt.

From 1st April 1920 to 1st April 1922 if that’s any help.

Similiar to a War Diary.

Margaret. 

Edited 1 February , 2022 by Margaretnolan

[doyle3]

William Sheehan's books (Hearts and Mines and Fighting For Dublin) give some good info re 5th Division and Dublin areas. I've not seen anything of the same level of detail for the rest of the country.

 

 

[8055Bell]

On 01/02/2022 at 10:19, Margaretnolan said:

@ddycher
 

I have extracts from 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment history, 1914-1922.
 

And I also have “Digest of Services” for the 1st Bn. The Manchester Regt.

From 1st April 1920 to 1st April 1922 if that’s any help.

Similiar to a War Diary.

Margaret. 

Hi Margaret,
Not wishing to hijack the thread but do your records mention anything about Pte G H Caen absconding on 24/06/1921?  There also 2 other missing band boys that are still outstanding.

Tim

[Margaretnolan]

21 minutes ago, 8055Bell said:

Hi Margaret,
Not wishing to hijack the thread but do your records mention anything about Pte G H Caen absconding on 24/06/1921?  There also 2 other missing band boys that are still outstanding.

Tim

No Tim, there’s no mention I’m afraid. I’ve searched dates at either end of 24/06/1921.

Who are the other two missing band boys?
 

Margaret

[8055Bell]

3513903 Pte Albert Mason 10/02/1921

87990 Pte R Murphy 14/08/1920

3513066 Pte B Pincher 21/02/1921

[Margaretnolan]

21 minutes ago, 8055Bell said:

3513903 Pte Albert Mason 10/02/1921

87990 Pte R Murphy 14/08/1920

3513066 Pte B Pincher 21/02/1921

No mention Tim of those three either.

Margaret 

[8055Bell]

Thanks for checking.  The century old mystery continues.

[ernest james]

Hi

Coming back to your original question which is looking for good background reading on the Irish Command in 1918-19.

I was interested in the Irish reaction to the conscription issue in March /April 1918.

I started with 'With our backs to the Wall' by David Stevenson which I enjoyed.

You may like this quote from page 262

'the Irish reaction against even the possiblity of conscription was so ferocious that the authorities proclaimed military rule and increased the garrison from 25,000 to 100,000, most of the troops coming from Great Britain. In short, the underlying manpower shortage was exacerbated.'

I then read an article by A.J Ward 'Lloyd George and the Irish Conscription Crisis' Historical Journal 1974. This is good on the political detail and very critical of many of the individuals involved but does not go into any great military detail. The garrison increase to 100,000 is in this article.

Let me know what you think of the book and article. Are they relevant to what you are looking for?

best wishes

ernest james

[ddycher]

Ernest

My apologies I had missed your post. Will take a look and get back to you. 
regards

Dave

[KGB]

Crozier's autobiography? 

[corisande]

59 minutes ago, KGB said:

Crozier's autobiography? 

I think Crozier's biography by Charles Messenger "The Broken Sword" a much better view of the man!

[ddycher]

Corisande

have obtained a copy of Charles Messengers “The Broken Sword” and am now working my way through it for possible ref’s. Interesting character and not one I had come across before. 
 

Thank you

Dave

[ddycher]

Spent the better part of the day running the the above book. To be honest did not get too much on the Irish side. Got some great cross references though for the WAFF which I have being detailing as part of Hubert Huddleston's biography.

Thanks again.

Dave

[corisande]

I had no idea why "Croziers autobiography" was being recommended, what I do know is that there is little in his own writings to be believed

His "contribution" to Ireland was in the setting and commanding the ADRIC for a period of just on 6 months (when you removed his hospital stay).

He is usually given more prominence than he deserves in histories of the War of Independence. But certainly one could not study the War of Independence without taking his contribution into account

My life of Crozier on this link - click

[MaureenE]

If Crozier was honest about the amount of alcohol drunk in West Africa, as recounted in his book Five Years Hard, I suspect he had drunk enough to cause some alcoholic brain damage.

Five Years Hard: Being an account of the fall of the Fulani Empire and a picture of the daily life of a Regimental Officer among the people of the Western Sudan by Brigadier-General FP Crozier. 1932 Archive.org. Covers the period 1901-1905. Note: missing some pages.

Maureen