Identifying a collar badge.

[Lynne62]

Hi, this is my first post, so I hope that I have come to the right place! I am trying to identify this young man. No-one in the family knows who he is, but he is the spitting image of my late father and my brother. All I have to go on is this photograph. I don't know how well it will copy, but the badge looks like crossed flags over a tower with three feet. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. I think he could be 12th or 21st  Lancers with a farrier and shoeing smith trade badge. @FROGSMILE and @CorporalPunishment will be able to help more. 
Michelle 

[FROGSMILE]

Hello Lynne, welcome to the forum.  As Michelle has said your soldier was either from the 12th (Prince of Wales’s Own) Lancers or the 21st (Empress of India’s) Lancers.  This is determined by his collar badge and the colour of the collar on his circa 1898 patrol jacket.  After careful examination I think that my vote goes for the 12th Lancers and that therefore his collar was scarlet.  I would date the photo to at the earliest the time of the 2nd Anglo/Boer War 1899-1902, although it could be as late as just before WW1 and the collar badge shown was a later pattern that replaced the Prince of Wales’s feathers used previously.  The patrol jacket was a working rather than ceremonial garment and, although in theory replaced from 1902 by a drab khaki ‘service dress’ used by all of the army, it continued in use as a convenient, smart uniform for several decades subsequently.  Both types of collar badge are seen in use concurrently during WW1.

Colour image courtesy of uniformology.com

Edited 6 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Looking at this again I’m wondering if it’s actually an auxiliary cavalry (yeomanry) regiment.  There’s something not right about the tops of the lances on the badge in that I can’t see a crown.

Can you tell us what is printed (embossed) on the bottom of the photograph?  A photographer’s studio location will help a great deal with the unit ID.

NB.  He wears the arm badge (horseshoe) of a trained ‘shoeing smith’ (junior farrier).

Edited 7 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

I go for the 21st Lancers. The position of the pennons in relation to the crown and the shape of the centre part which fits that of the VRI cypher.      Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I go for the 21st Lancers. The position of the pennons in relation to the crown and the shape of the centre part which fits that of the VRI cypher.      Pete.

I think you could well be right Pete, as I’ve been a little concerned that in Lynnes photo the collar shows as a pale shade in an image created using orthochromatic film, which would match with the French (pale) Blue of the 21st Lancers better than the scarlet of the 12th Lancers. 

For Lynne:  the 21st (Empress of India’s) Lancers were famous for their charge at the Battle of Omdurman, when they were accompanied by a young Winston Churchill who was attached from his own Hussar Regiment whilst at the same time moonlighting as a war correspondent for London newspapers.  The 21st were the most junior of the Army’s lancer regiment’s because from their formation until 1861 they had been a unit of mercenary cavalry working for an industrial concern of merchants called the Honourable East India Company (HEIC).  The HEIC cavalry regiments favoured French Blue as their uniform colour and that was commemorated in the collars and cuffs of the 21st.  You can see the type of patrol jacket worn in your photo at centre and right of the three images below.  You can see some more photos of the regiment here: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/222186-lancers-identify-picture-please/

 

 

Edited 6 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

17 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I go for the 21st Lancers. The position of the pennons in relation to the crown and the shape of the centre part which fits that of the VRI cypher.      Pete.

I agree, what is visible of the buttons is a better fit for the 21st too:

 

Edited 7 October , 2021 by Andrew Upton

[FROGSMILE]

There is indeed a unanimous conclusion now that 21st (Empress of India’s) Lancers is the answer.  If @Lynne62 can decipher the photographers embossed details it will be possible to offer more information about a likely date and location.  The enclosed photo shows a 21st Lancer in Dublin at around the time of the 2nd Boer War (afternote: they were indeed based in Dublin circa 1902).

 

Edited 7 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Lynne62]

Thank you all for the information. Unfortunately I can't see the embossed words any better on the photo than you can see on the copy. I think the first word is Imperial. On the reverse is printed CARTE POSTALE which is obviously French, and the word Gevaerty. Thanks again.

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, Lynne62 said:

Thank you all for the information. Unfortunately I can't see the embossed words any better on the photo than you can see on the copy. I think the first word is Imperial. On the reverse is printed CARTE POSTALE which is obviously French, and the word Gevaerty. Thanks again.

If you have a magnifying glass it’s the embossed words on the front that are key Lynne, it’s usually a photographic studio stamp and includes the location (town, etc.).  If that can be discerned through a glass I can probably date it for you.  Just before 1914 the regiment was in Rawalpindi, India, whence it returned home to deploy to war.

[Lynne62]

I have seen a similar embossed card on e-bay which says Imperial Studio, Cairo, Egypt. Hope this helps. Thanks.

[FROGSMILE]

On 07/10/2021 at 17:51, Lynne62 said:

I have seen a similar embossed card on e-bay which says Imperial Studio, Cairo, Egypt. Hope this helps. Thanks.

Yes that helps a great deal and helps to narrow down when the photo was taken.  The regiment was stationed in Egypt between 1896 and 1898 whence it deployed to the Sudan before returning to Britain (Canterbury) in 1899.  It was also in Egypt between 1910 and 1911, which is I suspect when your photograph was taken. The image enclosed below was taken by the regimental photographer in the desert, off duty, circa 1911.

NB.  The hairstyle and general appearance of the soldier in your portrait photo suggests the latter of the two periods when the 21st were in Egypt.  He clearly had the photo professionally taken as a keepsake.

Edited 13 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Lynne62]

Thank you for that. it will be very helpful in narrowing down the search. I don't suppose you know how many men I would be looking at here, tens, hundreds or thousands?.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Lynne62 said:

Thank you for that. it will be very helpful in narrowing down the search. I don't suppose you know how many men I would be looking at here, tens, hundreds or thousands?.

It depends on the period of time you have to cover Lynne.  Clearly over say 50-years a lot of men will have served in the regiment.  There are some superb genealogical detectives in this forum who are at the top of their game. If you can post the name of who you think it might be plus their year of birth (even approximate) and a home town/area then I’m sure that they will see what they can find.  The start point once you provide that information will probably be a relevant national census.

 

Edited 13 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

I seem to recall that the 21st Lancers were alleged (by other cavalry regiments!) to have the motto “Thou shall not kill” in their early years?

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, PhilB said:

I seem to recall that the 21st Lancers were alleged (by other cavalry regiments!) to have the motto “Thou shall not kill” in their early years?

Yes Phil, it was allegedly to tease them for their lack of battle honours when compared with the other line cavalry.  I’ve always thought that this might have played a part in the determined attitude of officers and men when they charged so headlong at Omdurman.

Edited 13 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve always thought that this might have played a part in the determined attitude of officers and men when they charged so headlong at Omdurman.

A charge which didn`t turn out well!

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, PhilB said:

A charge which didn`t turn out well!

Indeed, that hidden nullah cost them dearly.  In the end it was an action without mapping and without reconnaissance, but they were different times and opportunities for such pre-study and precaution do not seem to have been there.

[FROGSMILE]

@Lynne62 Your relative appears to be around 20+/- in the photo, so if we say that the photo was taken close to 1910 then he was probably born close to 1890 (give or take).  That might help you to narrow possibilities down.

[Lynne62]

Well, this is where it gets interesting. Just to backtrack, many years ago a stranger knocked my dad's door and gave him that photo saying, "This photo belongs to you, he is your family". I have been on Ancestry for many years and done extensive research into the family, but this fellow has never appeared. The main reason I shared it was mainly to date it. As you have pointed out I had also concluded that he was born around 1890. This happens to  be the same year that my grandmother was born. My father was born out of wedlock in 1930 and never knew who his father was (are you getting my drift here?) It looks like I have hit a wall on this one unless there are any records of ex 21st lancers who were up to no good in Sutton Coldfield in 1929. At least I know a lot more than I did, thanks again for your help.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Lynne62 said:

Well, this is where it gets interesting. Just to backtrack, many years ago a stranger knocked my dad's door and gave him that photo saying, "This photo belongs to you, he is your family". I have been on Ancestry for many years and done extensive research into the family, but this fellow has never appeared. The main reason I shared it was mainly to date it. As you have pointed out I had also concluded that he was born around 1890. This happens to  be the same year that my grandmother was born. My father was born out of wedlock in 1930 and never knew who his father was (are you getting my drift here?) It looks like I have hit a wall on this one unless there are any records of ex 21st lancers who were up to no good in Sutton Coldfield in 1929. At least I know a lot more than I did, thanks again for your help.

Yes I get your drift Lynne.  A not uncommon scenario and I wish you well with your detective work.

[PRC]

On 07/10/2021 at 18:25, FROGSMILE said:

It was also in Egypt between 1910 and 1911, which is I suspect when your photograph was taken. The image enclosed below was taken by the regimental photographer in the desert, off duty, circa 1911.

On 06/10/2021 at 19:06, Michelle Young said:

with a farrier and shoeing smith trade badge.

The 1911 Census of England & Wales also included in it's scope the overseas garrisons of the British Army - so the 21st Lancers are on an institutional return for Abbasaia, Cairo. Just putting in "21st Lancers" as my search criteria produced 713 matches. Effectively you have a roll-call of the regiment on the night of the 2nd April 1911.

Assuming he was still in the Army in that point, that he had already qualified as a farrier, and wasn't on UK leave, (all BIG assumptions), then I guess it comes down to how many farriers were on the strength of the regiment. The first page I randomly opened up had two. A scroll through the return should leave you in a position to identify the rest.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

Using these two as examples Charles Victor Sabine, (s\n 21L/6598) and William Edward Gage, (Shoeing Smith 9th Lancers s\n 6692 and Tank Corps s\n 314532) were both still in the Army at the outbreak of the Great War.

Charles Victor Sabine reenlisted in the Tank Corps in 1919 having completed 13 years with the 21st Lancers. He was then stationed in Persia. (His Medal Index Card shows him on attachment to the South Persia Rifles). New service number was 315091. Looks like he stayed in until 1927. So certainly the records for this period will be held by the Ministry of Defence, and possibly those for WW1 as well - which is one of the reasons why they don't seem to be on the likes of Ancestry and FindMyPast.

Hope that helps,
Peter

 

[FROGSMILE]

Brilliant work Peter!  Narrowing down the shoeing smiths from the regimental strength will certainly enable Lynne to home in on the possibles.

[Lynne62]

Yes, thanks a lot Peter. I have gone through the census you directed me to, and have listed all the farriers. It may be that I never get an answer to my question, but with the help of you all I have come on miles in just a few days.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Lynne62 said:

Yes, thanks a lot Peter. I have gone through the census you directed me to, and have listed all the farriers. It may be that I never get an answer to my question, but with the help of you all I have come on miles in just a few days.

Just for clarification Lynne, the NCOs were usually rated as farriers (e.g. ‘farrier sergeant’, or ‘farrier corporal’) and the privates were rated as ‘shoeing smiths’.  Collectively they all worked for the farrier major (a specialised sergeant major).  Up until July 1915 the latter was rated as a regimental staff sergeant, and after that date as a warrant officer class 2.

Edited 16 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE