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Christ's Hospital Rugby XV 1908-09 and a future Lt-Col F. E. Elliot - but who knows the others?


Kimberley John Lindsay
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Dear All,

Following on from a fascinating officer-cadet group photo currently being brilliantly analysed by Great War Forum members, I present this Christ's Hospital (the charitable public school) ("Old Blues") Rugby XV of 1908-09.

Seated in front centre, ca. sixteen year-old F. E. Elliot, whose father was a retired Army Major (and an Old Carthusean: KiA Ypres 1915).

Frederick Eden (Freddie) Elliot, 1892-1971, was to become a Siege Gunner; RFC Observer (wounded 1917), Siege Bty Cdr., Mountain Battery Cdr (and briefly comd. a MB Regt as Lt-Col until called upon to retire in 1941). He was latterly a King's, then Queen's Mesenger...

But what of the other Boys?

Every and every one of them would have been caught up in the hurly-burly of the Great War!

1073410674_ElliotF.E.ChristsHospitalRugbyXV1908-09.jpg.389e2ec90c7b3aac96fdc802c2ae80c6.jpg1874470537_CaptFEElliotRGAAnzim1919.jpg.36d4e98e32410ba0729d4427f651898f.jpg1741299573_FreddieElliot1May1937MaymyoBurma.jpg.2cb82946d4c4725be69040cafa7291dc.jpgCan the knowledgeable Great War members insert Stories about the remaining fourteen? They were (including Freddie Elliot):-

P. J. Edmunds;  R. H. Gregory;  F. L. Shaw;  H. G. Kingscott;  C. J. Davies;  A. H. Hart;  J. F. Colquhoun

A. E. Bachelor;  H. B. Hake;  D. L. Drew;  J. H. Wise;  C. L. Bryant

H. M. Steven;  F. E. Elliot; C. S. Nason.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Edited by Kimberley John Lindsay
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Hi Kim,

Thanks for posting this -

Christ's Hospital has always been of interest to me, I am related to John and Frances West through the "Blue Line" of the family tree - http://www.west-group.org/ch.html

I have often wondered what happened to the First World War generation of "West's Gift for Children" students - perhaps Frederick Eden Elliott was one of them?

I will enjoy doing some poking around on this one.

Cheers

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Dear RedCoat,

How encourageing! Yes, by all means present the GWF with revelations of the one or the other pupil.

Notwithstanding being Landed Gentry, Freddie Elliot's father had difficulty financing the education of his five sons - not to mention two daughters!

Kindest regards,

Kim.1677605106_F.E.ElliotLandedGentry.jpg.62108872e112306fe367e1fd4064823c.jpg

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CS Nason = Cuthbert Stephen Nason.

1.  London Gazette - 5th Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28886/page/6910/data.pdf

2.  Medal Roll (from ancestry):

1241424590_MedalRoll.jpg.1fb8ea2cde02d96c3d1435c41c348f02.jpg

 

3.  1891 Census - Born 1891 Greenside, Durham - the son of Rev Richard M Nason and his wife Alice.

4.  Brother of Richard Philip Nason :

https://www.chwarmemorial.org.uk/RollofHonour.aspx?RecID=260&TableName=ta_ww1rollofhonour&BrowseID=1140

JP

Edited by helpjpl
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Dear helpjpl,

Well done, many thanks!

As expected, the revelations are poignant in the extreme. The perhaps most brilliant and finest-looking Boy (R. H. Gregory, MC), son of ex-solicitor and Revd Gregory, was KiA.

Also a budding doctor, who switched to the RN Div (Sub-Lt A. R. Hart, RNVR), was KiA in 1916...

A younger brother of F. E. Elliot died of disease at Salonika, and Freddie himself was wounded over Bullecourt, 1917, as a RFC Obs (15 Sqn., Be2c Army Reconnaissance)...

The brother of Capt C. S. Nason was also KIA: the sons of Revd Nason...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

Edited by Kimberley John Lindsay
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13 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

H. G. Kingscott;

This is Hubert George Kingscott who won a Scholarship in 1905.

Served France 1915 with 1/5th Gloucestershires, Pte, 2690, landed 29/3/15

Trf'd to RNR as Temp Assistant Paymaster on 28/8/1915, being a qualified accountant. RNR Service record is on FindmyPast here 'very good at games'

Lived in Gloucester. Born 16/8/1892. Died 1969

Partner in Glocester Accountants Kingscott Dix and Co

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14 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

H. B. Hake

Hallam Brookfield Egmont Hake, born 8/4/1890 died 1971.

Won his scholarship in 1902 whilst at Louth Grammar School.

Married 1914, divorced 1935.

Not sure on War service. Director of a rubber company.

1914 appointed puisne Judge for the district of Tesselton in British North Borneo.

 

edit:  HBE Hake was a CBE  and chairman of Hoscote Rubber Estates in 1949.

Edited by charlie962
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4 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Hallam Brookfield Egmont Hake, born 8/4/1890 died 1971.

Ended up in Singapore directly after WW1, as he was initiated into the Lodge of St George of the Freemasons there in 1920. By 1939 he was back in England, in the City of Westminster, and working as a rubber company director and secretarial advisor. There is also a Lorna M Hake, born in 1917, living with him, both are married, presumably to each other. In fact he seems to have been married at least three times, as there is a marriage in Cambridge in 1914, and another in 1960 in Kensington. No obvious appearances in either the medal rolls or medal index cards, assuming that he would have been an officer.

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Dear Charlie,

Thanks for your diligent and welcome replies: much appreciated!

H. G. Kingscott seems to have had the proverbial Good War, which is good to know.

The same seems to have applied to Hallam Hake, who coincidentally died in the same year as Elliot. Perhaps someone has their medals: those of F. E. Elliot attached  for the medals aficionados (it is easier to collect medals, than to earn them!)...

I do not have FindMyPast, but I have a mate in Melbourne who might have it (hopefully).

Kindest regards,

Kim.918975539_15StarLtElliotRGA.jpg.e6ab8d4f6a91056a59615dc09a13157c.jpg824875304_JCollinsobv.jpg.96a354f043ee83bb8e2ace4bd8873682.jpg

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I think CL Bryant = Cyril Limmer Bryant MC (Suffolk Regiment).

1.  Son of Clement Arthur Bryant and Gertrude Louisa nee Limmer. In 1911 Clement Arthur was Estate Agent for Christ's Hospital, Horsham (ancestry):

Bryant.jpg.cc0498ab64e3f7cf696b6bfe137ec9de.jpg

 

2.  Cyril Limmer Bryant's birth was registered Apr-May-June 1892 at Thetford and he died 09 December 1968.

3.  London Gazette.

a)  to be temp. Lts. whilst empld with an Officer Cadet Bn:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29730/page/8597/data.pdf

b)  MC:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30901/supplement/10928/data.pdf

c) the undermentioned to be Lts. 2nd Sept. 1939:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34662/page/5985/data.pdf

4.  There may be a photo here (findmypast British newspapers):

MC.jpg.e68de76215a532d13aa9e2e9030bdba1.jpg

JP

 

Edited by helpjpl
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I wonder if D.L. Drew is Douglas Laurel Drew, who's birth was registered in the first quarter of 1890 in Edmonton, Middlesex. Although his birth was registered in Edmonton, he was actually baptized in the parish of St Helier, Jersey in 1905, with a birth date of 27 February 1890, and a baptism date of 23 August 1905. He can easily be found in the 1891, 1901, and 1911 censuses, his father was a civil servant working for the GPO, and an older brother in 1911 was also working as a civil servant for the India Office. In the 1911 census, Douglas was a student, and there is a medal index card with a full trio for a Douglas Laurel Drew serving with the Royal Garrison Artillery as a 2nd Lieutenant, and then with the Royal Engineers as a captain. First entry to a theatre of war was in September 1915 and he was also awarded the Military Cross at some point. 

He survived the war as his name crops up several times in passenger lists crossing the Atlantic in the 1920's, with an occupation of teacher. In 1939 he is living in Oxford and working as a university teacher. He is single in 1939, and I can find no trace of a marriage. His death was registered in Devon in 1965.

Image sourced from Ancestry:

30850_A000468-01334.jpg

Edited to add links to his commissioning in 1914, and the award of his Military Cross:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29021/page/11142

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/13453/page/1860

Edited by Tawhiri
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Dear All,

Super! An MC to D. L. Drew. 

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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There are several candidates for P.J. Edmunds, but the most likely I think is the Percy James Edmunds born on 1 February 1890, and baptized at St John, Hackney on 30 March 1890, the son of Alfred William and Ada Teresa Edmunds, living at 39 Chatham Place. There is a Percival John Edmunds born two years earlier in Taunton, in 1888, but he seems to have served with the Canadian forces in WW1, and there is a second Percy James Edmunds baptized in August 1890 in Hackney, but cross-referencing his parent's names shows that this particular Percy James Edmunds died four years later in 1894. Father Alfred's occupation is given as shorthand writer on the baptism register.

In the 1891 England census the family are living at 39 Chatham Place, as per the baptism register, while in 1901 Percy appears to be attending grammar school and living as a boarder in a house called the Grange, along with his older brother Alfred, in Charlton Kings, Cheltenham, Gloucester. In 1911 Percy is a boarder at Highview, Broadway, Dorchester, Dorset, and is a student of mathematics.

After the war there are several instances of a Percy James Edmunds of the right age, appearing in passenger lists to Canada in 1927, and India in 1938, who in 1927 is the Director of Wireless Services for the Government of India, and in 1938 is in the Indian Civil Service. A wife, Susan Elizabeth Edmunds is named as his nearest relative in the country he has just left in 1927, and in 1938 he is accompanied by her, she being listed as five years older than he is.  I can find the marriage of a Percy J Edmunds to a Susan E Scott that was registered in Marylebone in the second quarter of 1918, which seems to fit.  I did also find this little biography in the Registers of Employees of the East India Company and the India Office, 1746-1939, the birth date is correct, and working with wireless radio would certainly seem to be a fitting occupation for someone who was a student of mathematics in 1911.

Image sourced from Ancestry:

47593_83024005549_1608-00698.jpg

Where I am drawing a complete blank though, is any form of active war service for Percy. I suspect that his marriage registration holds the clues to that little mystery, and in particular whether he was a serving soldier or working in a civilian capacity. There is the death of a Susan E Edmunds of the right age registered in Cheltenham, Gloucester in the last quarter of 1957, while the death of a Percy J Edmunds of the right age is registered in the third quarter of 1959 in Tonbridge, Kent. All a bit circumstantial, but it certainly seems to fit with someone who would have been at public school in 1906.

 

Edited by Tawhiri
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Dear Tawhiri,

Good work! 

What a fascinating cross-section those Boys have proved to be....

The ICS is an interesting aspect, too - combined with his Wireless expertise.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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3 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

Super! An MC to D. L. Drew. 

And a Military Cross to Cyril Limmer Bryant - that's 3 so far.

JP

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Dear All, and JP,

Yes: I was hoping that sort of gallantry record would emerge from the CH Rugby XV.

I will endeavour to find the relevant MC citations...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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Edmunds P J was indeed from Cheltenham and went to Queens College Oxford.

This from FindmyPast

1136685688_GWFEdmundsPJChristsHosp.JPG.821fd8532d48e495685d5983727afcff.JPG

and this from Oxford University Roll of War Services

Queens College

1909 Edmunds,* P. J., B.A. (Nov. 25, 1914). Capt. R.E., empld. War Office. D. Feb. 1917.

where * means member of University OTC,   and  D means MiD

Gazetted Temp 2Lt RE Nov 1914

His MIC shows he was entitled to the BWM only. -'Tour of inspection Italy and France'

I wonder if he was in Wireless work during the war ?

 

charlie

Edited by charlie962
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On 20/09/2021 at 09:32, charlie962 said:

1909 Edmunds,* P. J., B.A. (Nov. 25, 1914). Capt. R.E., empld. War Office. D. Feb. 1917.

Given the date of 25 November 1914, I wonder if this is our Percy James Edmunds.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28984/page/9695

It looks as though he also received a knighthood in 1946.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/37465/page/913

And now knowing that he was in the Royal Engineers this leads to this individual, Captain Percy Jas Edmunds, listed in the medal rolls for the Royal Engineers. The corresponding medal index card indicates that he only received the British War Medal for a tour of inspection in Italy and France.

Image sourced from Ancestry:

41629_636897_11240-00267.jpg

Edited by Tawhiri
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14 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

Given the date of 25 November 1914, I wonder if this is our Percy James Edmunds.

See my edited post- he was commissioned same month

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Frederic Lloyd Shaw. Hampshires and MGC

This school admission to the Strand School, Lambeth in 1909 give his previous school as Christ's Hospital Horsham. Born it says 24/8/92. Parents in China - father a missionary. left school in 1911. Postal address St Albans. Born in Ireland. His marriage cert to Marian Jane Livey (or Liney) says XIII Hampshires - 15/3/16, Poss died 30/6/1968. His son Patrick Robert Dupre Shaw was killed on D Day and is buried at Bayeux. 

FLS was an assistant master at Christ's Hospital School in 1919. Then St Paul's, Kensington and then a Head Master abroad in the Malay States

see https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBOR%2FTCHIX%2FSER-SHAZ%2F0432&parentid=GBOR%2FTCHIX%2F76289

Commission

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29228/page/6843

Edited by Mark1959
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Dear All,

Edmunds the solitary knighthood?

I suspected all along that Freddie Elliot's CH rugby group would turn out to be highly interesting: a credit to the School, too.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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I can find a reference to a J.F. Colquhoun, who attended Christ's Hospital from 1903 to 1909, in a copy of The Blue for November-December 1946. Apparently he received an OBE as chairman of the General Purposes Committee of the Boy Scouts Association. This gets us to John Frederick Colquhoun, who was a long serving headquarters official of the Boy Scouts Association, and even has his own Wikipedia page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frederick_Colquhoun

Born 22 November 1890 in Stoke Newington, and died on 28 August 1968 in London. He was baptized on 15 January 1891, the son of William Brooks, a surgeon, and Alice Jane Colquhoun in the church of St Matthew, Upper Clapton, Hackney, England. The family can be found in the 1891 England census living in Hackney St John, with John looking like an only child. I can find his parents living in Sandhurst in the 1901 England census, but John himself is rather elusive. In the 1911 England census he is single, and living with his parents at 1 Upper Bedford Place, Bloomsbury, London, and working as an Assistant Surveyor for Inland Revenue.  In the 1939 England and Wales Register he is single and living in the Morton Hotel, 2 Woburn Place, Holborn, London, and working as H M Inspector of Taxes Board & Inland Revenue.

Once again, not finding an obvious record of his war service though.

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According to th Blue there was a OBs dinner in Baghdad on 5/10/18. Amongst those list as in MEF but not able to be present is Lt J H Wise IAR. (1902-09)

Possibly the man who went to University College Oxford in 1909. "1909 Wise, J. H., B.A. (Apr. 9, 1915). Captain Indian Army Reserve of Officers, attached g2nd (92nd?) Punjabis. India, Mesopotamia, Palestine. D. Mesopotamia, 1917.

MID 14/8/17 Mesopotamia. On wounded list in March 1917

Edited by Mark1959
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