Any thoughts about this group photo?

[TullochArd]

If there's anyone interested in finding out more about the Shanghai Volunteer Corps during the Great War I'd offer they search the internet for Shanghai Municipal Council Report (by year).  Importantly for us GWF types these Annual Reports always include a detailed report by the (always British) Commanding Officer to his "employers" on the Municipal Council.  It will not take much reading to realise that this unit is a very British led/equipped "International" unit.  Here's a tiny 1916 example of the fascinating (to me at least) pages and pages of detail available:

(Although "out of scope" for GWF it amused me to see a post-War comment regarding the Italians "I have rarely seen them" and another registering surprise regarding the American Company that notes "It is amazing to me that this company comprises such a small proportion of the American community.) 

Edited 22 October , 2021 by TullochArd

[ss002d6252]

11 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

If there's anyone interested in finding out more about the Shanghai Volunteer Corps during the Great War I'd offer they search the internet for Shanghai Municipal Council Report (by year).  Importantly for us GWF types these Annual Reports always include a detailed report by the (always British) Commanding Officer to his "employers" on the Municipal Council.  It will not take much reading to realise that this unit is a very British led/equipped "International" unit.  Here's a tiny 1916 example of the fascinating (to me at least) pages and pages of detail available:

(Although "out of scope" for GWF it amused me to see a post-War comment regarding the Italians "I have rarely seen them" and another registering surprise at "how few actual Americans there are in the American Company") 

 

  

The nationalities in it, especially for 1916, are an interesting topic by themselves,

Craig

[FROGSMILE]

Nowadays it would be a very American “led/equipped international unit” and the registering of surprise might be about how few actual non Anglo-Saxon/Caucasian faces there are in the company representing a multi-racial Britain.

[TullochArd]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Nowadays it would be a very American “led/equipped international unit” and the registering of surprise might be about how few actual non Anglo-Saxon/Caucasian faces there are in the company representing a multi-racial Britain.

Fair comment Frogsmile ...... back to 1916 ....... here's their ET which may be of interest to you.  I'm pretty sure the "Helmets" mentioned here are FSH but an guessing that "Hats Colonial" are Slouch Hats?  The post War bonus of Lewis Guns, MkIII Rifles, Very Pistols, P08 Webbing and Vickers Guns is yet to follow; as is the local construction of their ten much photographed Armoured Cars. Perhaps strangly after the Great War experience they also requested another 75 swords for the Light Horse Company in 1923. 

[FROGSMILE]

Yes it’s interesting to see the equipment table, thank you.  I think your interpretation of hats colonial as slouch hats is undoubtedly correct, although it’s not the term used in the regular army’s nomenclature.  In the officers’ dress regulations it appeared as a Terai Hat and for other ranks it was something along the lines of hat, field, universal pattern if I recall correctly (or similar).  There are several threads about them and many years ago the late forum member, Joe Sweeney, gave an interesting rundown on their adoption to accompany 1902 drab service dress as a temporary, stop gap measure (they had the advantage of having been used in South Africa and there was a plentiful supply of surplus stock!).

NB.  The Morris tubes were still in use during my own service.

Edited 30 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

On 27/08/2021 at 13:26, FROGSMILE said:

As far as I can see the Japanese wore a uniform styled to suit their military culture, although at that time they were ostensibly Anglophiles, especially in the Imperial Japanese Navy, which maintained an exchange programme with the RN into the mid 1930s.

I respectfully beg to differ Frogsmile ......... the Japanese Company conformed with British uniform throughout and were equipped with British weapons and equipment.  Here  (below) they are deployed during local disturbances in 1925 (Getty).  The Lewis Guns were a post-war bonus from the British Government. 

At this moment I suspect the only national dress concession within the Japanese Company was a type of period Imperial Japanese Army badge (a star) utilised (earlier post) as a collar badge. 

 

Edited 9 September , 2021 by TullochArd
Type of Russo-Japanese War hat badge worn as collar badge?

[FROGSMILE]

15 hours ago, TullochArd said:

I respectfully beg to differ Frogsmile ......... the Japanese Company conformed with British uniform throughout and were equipped with British weapons and equipment.  Here  (below) they are deployed during local disturbances in 1925 (Getty).  The Lewis Guns were a post-war bonus from the British Government. 

At this moment I suspect the only national dress concession within the Japanese Company was a type of period Imperial Japanese Army badge (a star) utilised (earlier post) as a collar badge. 

 

That’s certainly more Anglophile than I had appreciated from the first photo.  I had thought that like their Navy (IJN) they wore a quite Japanese style peaked forage cap, but I might be confusing the two organisation’s dress.

NB.  I am shocked to see the British style rank stripes, but I shouldn’t be, given that it was agreed for practical reasons that the entire corps would follow British organisational norms.  It suggests that you could well be correct that the SNCO you spotted with a Japanese style medal might be from the Japanese company as you originally thought may be the case.

Edited 10 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

Re the equipment table, what’s a “Roller, body”?   I notice there were Officers’ whistles but none for NCOs or ORs - quite a change from WW1.

[TullochArd]

1 hour ago, PhilB said:

Re the equipment table, what’s a “Roller, body”?   

That one got me stumped too.  

I don't think it is anothing medical (as in vaguely similar "Rollers, Stretcher" on Ambulances) as the ET clearly prefixes all "Medical Stores" as such.  I thought it might be the WW1 Cavalry/RFC type map board with rollers (below) but then there are 36 on charge to the unit which makes that seem impossibly unlikely unless they were using them in static locations such as sangars.

 

Edited 10 September , 2021 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

I think the body rollers are maybe for lunge training the unit’s horses.  Perhaps coincidentally there are further equestrian related items following on in the equipment table.  The word ‘body’ seems to add context and be indicative.

 See: https://www.greggrantsaddlery.com.au/horse/training-and-lunging/web-body-roller

Edited 10 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think the body rollers are maybe for lunge training the unit’s horses.  Perhaps coincidentally there are further equestrian related items following on in the equipment table.  The word ‘body’ seems to add context and be indicative.

Good find ....... that'll be them.

Edited 10 September , 2021 by TullochArd

[PhilB]

Any comment on “officers’ whistles” - not known in WW1 British units?

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Any comment on “officers’ whistles” - not known in WW1 British units?

Still called that now.  They are the long tube type with no ball inside and were in the past sometimes secured in a leather tube on the Sam Browne brace.  At that time NCOs were often (but not always) issued the acme type with a pea often associated with football referees.

Edited 10 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

I was forgetting that some officers carried whistles on their Sam Brownes. I can find no reference to a specific officers’ whistle. I assume they were standard Metropolitan type tube whistles, unless “better” ones were available for private purchase in, say, silver.

Edited 10 September , 2021 by PhilB

[TullochArd]

1 hour ago, PhilB said:

I can find no reference to a specific officers’ whistle. I assume they were standard Metropolitan type tube whistles, unless “better” ones were available for private purchase in, say, silver.

It's all in here Phil ..... spend a few hours/days checking out the Whistle Museum – A web site dedicated to whistles, research and collecting whistles. by Avner Strauss.  I was particulary impressed with the WW1 German military variations that were all totally new to me.

In keeping with this thread an image of a period SMP barrel type is below.  Frogsmile is, as ever, spot on with the British officer barrel and NCO pea variations of this period.  IMHO the pea version is far superior in volume although not aesthetics. I was still being issued the barrel type in the British Army within the last ten years so it's a stayer.  Interestingly the USMC are currently using Acme pea, albeit in plastic.   

......... if you want a similar link to the Barbed Wire Museum I have that one too (........ actually I don't  )

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, PhilB said:

I assume they were standard Metropolitan type tube whistles, unless “better” ones were available for private purchase in, say, silver.

Yes they were Phil.  They are collectors items now, stamped with a broad arrow and dated to WW1, WW2 and after.  I still have one that I was issued as a subaltern somewhere, it was entirely unchanged from the WW1 issue.  The RFA and RGA units are particularly good examples of the typical arrangement, with section commanders (subalterns) equipped with tube whistles and sub-section commanders (sergeants) equipped with snail (lescargot) whistles.

Edited 10 September , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[t123]

Hi guys. American man from  the Shanghai Volunteer Corps Light Horse probably have this badges.

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, t123 said:

Hi guys. American man from  the Shanghai Volunteer Corps Light Horse probably have this badges.

Very interesting and the quality of the items is very clear.  The button is presented upside down (the buckle should be at the bottom) but perhaps it’s turned on the card.  I’m intrigued by the small metal shield on his hat in the photograph.  It looks like a typical American shield bearing star and stripes.

Thank you for posting.

Edited 13 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[t123]

For me it looks like this badge.

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, t123 said:

For me it looks like this badge.

No it’s clearly an American shield shape of the type below.  The brass badge is of the style used on a typical British military horse’s leather crupper. 

Edited 13 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

No it’s clearly an American shield shape of the type below.  

There's also an American sergeant seated front left wearing the same hat badge.  His image (below) dosn't show any more detail as it's confused with a vent hole in his "Hats, Campaign" but to me it too smacks unmistakably similar to the shield you refer to.   Page 223 of the book "85 Years of the Shanghai Volunteer Corps" shows officers commanding the American Company from it's (official) formation in 1906 to the mid 30's and all wear their Hats, Campaign 100% badge less (and, unlike these two SNCOs, also seem to avoid shirts and ties until the 1930's)

Edited 14 December , 2022 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, TullochArd said:

There's also an American sergeant seated front left wearing the same hat badge.  His image (below) dosn't show any more detail as it's confused with a vent hole in his "Hats, Campaign" but to me it too smacks unmistakably similar to the shield you refer to.   Page 223 of the book "85 Years of the Shanghai Volunteer Corps" shows officers commanding the American Company from it's (official) formation in 1906 to the mid 30's and all wear their Hats, Campaign 100% badge less (and, unlike these two SNCOs, also seem to avoid shirts and ties until the 1930's)

Thank you TullochArd, I see what you mean and agree that it seems to be the same shield badge.  Presumably some of the badges are likely to have survived, but they might not be recognised for what they are.  It’s interesting what you point out about the eschewing of shirt and tie.  The US Forces in WW1 also preferred to keep their high collar’s despite the other dress influences that they definitely picked up from their French and British allies.

[TullochArd]

It's always good to draw a line under a thread.  We cracked Mikhail's original question regarding the exact location of the photo and had a good old rummage through the individuals themselves and the unit in general.  One mystery remained and that was the provenance of the memorial behind the group. I can now reveal that thanks to the most generous engagement of a world famous academic on modern China and colonialism we have our answer in full.  We are told: 

"It (the cross) was erected in 1867, and was certainly still in situ in 1913. I doubt it was removed before anytime before 1943 (if then). It was donated by Lady de Normann, the mother of one of the four British soldiers who died in captivity alongside Thomas Bowlby, Times Correspondent, having been seized under flag of truce by Qing soldiers in 1860. The cross was sent to Shanghai in 1862 to be taken onwards to Beijing to be erected over their grave, but for want of funds lingered in the city, in the consulate grounds, where it was eventually erected in 1867. By 1913 no one in the consulate quite knew what it really was, and it took some digging in archives to reconstruct the story. You can see just how big it was here ....."

https://jiuyingzhi.com/antiquephotos/2349.html

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

It's always good to draw a line under a thread.  We cracked Mikhail's original question regarding the exact location of the photo and had a good old rummage through the individuals themselves and the unit in general.  One mystery remained and that was the provenance of the memorial behind the group. I can now reveal that thanks to the most generous engagement of a world famous academic on modern China and colonialism we have our answer in full.  We are told: 

"It (the cross) was erected in 1867, and was certainly still in situ in 1913. I doubt it was removed before anytime before 1943 (if then). It was donated by Lady de Normann, the mother of one of the four British soldiers who died in captivity alongside Thomas Bowlby, Times Correspondent, having been seized under flag of truce by Qing soldiers in 1860. The cross was sent to Shanghai in 1862 to be taken onwards to Beijing to be erected over their grave, but for want of funds lingered in the city, in the consulate grounds, where it was eventually erected in 1867. By 1913 no one in the consulate quite knew what it really was, and it took some digging in archives to reconstruct the story. You can see just how big it was here ....."

https://jiuyingzhi.com/antiquephotos/2349.html

Fantastic to be able to find the answer after so long, thank you for going to the trouble of tracking the details down.  Hopefully this will now act as a searchable point of reference via the Internet portal.

Edited 4 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE