Any thoughts about this group photo?

[Mikhail]

Could anybody help to define time, place and uniforms on this group photo?

thanks!

[FROGSMILE]

From 1925 to 1935 approximately going by the pattern of forage cap and wearing of collar badges and WW1 medals.  It looks like a local unit with attached European permanent staff in a Far East colonial overseas station like Singapore or Hong Kong.

There are some Tank Corps men present with the collar badges of the Machine Gun Corps which places the photo in the earlier half of the span I’ve mentioned above.  In the mid to late 1920s the MGC collar badges were still being worn by some elements of the Tank Corps as well as instructors at machine gun schools.

Edited 25 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

@FROGSMILE - out of interest, is there anything significant to the senior officers cap being a different colour?

Also what looks like two American NCO's present. Could be they were on an exchange at Hong Kong \ Singapore, or could be suggestive of the International Settlement at Shanghai, or somewhere similar where representatives of the various nations armed forces might have had more cause to mingle.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

@FROGSMILE - out of interest, is there anything significant to the senior officers cap being a different colour?

Also what looks like two American NCO's present. Could be they were on an exchange at Hong Kong \ Singapore, or could be suggestive of the International Settlement at Shanghai, or somewhere similar where representatives of the various nations armed forces might have had more cause to mingle.

Cheers,
Peter

Funnily enough I was just looking at insignia, etc. Peter.  The senior officer is a full colonel on the staff, but might also be a colonel commandant (an appointment that replaced brigadier general at that time) and there’s a multinational staff (including two American chaps in campaign (a la drill instructor) hats.  The insignia is that of the Shanghai Volunteer Corps at the time of the Japanese confrontation in China.

As they are almost all SNCOs it appears to be a photo opportunity at either some kind of training conference, or a multinational warrant officers’ & sergeants’ mess, with the colonel as principal guest of honour.  The Americans are probably also guests.  As well as the Tank Corps, other regiments present include Royal Artillery (possibly also volunteers) and three auxiliary SNCOs from the Shanghai Scottish Volunteers.

 

 

 

Edited 25 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Mikhail]

Thanks a lot, Frogsmile!

it looks like you are correct, as usual

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Mikhail said:

Thanks a lot, Frogsmile!

it looks like you are correct, as usual

I’m glad to help Mikhail and appreciate seeing your photos.  Thank you for your kind compliment, but I don’t pretend to always be right and am always grateful for the input of my fellow forum members and enthusiasts.

My overall impression is that with the exception of the Tank Corps (and possibly Royal Artillery) all those British SNCOs and their ethnic Chinese comrades are volunteer auxiliaries, albeit that some will be permanent regular staff.  It’s probably the occasion of a conference during their mandated annual training camp/session.  Of course many of the volunteers have medals from WW1.

Edited 25 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

Two to the left of the colonoel - a sergeant wearing a Sam Browne? Other examples elsewhere.

Edited 25 August , 2021 by PhilB

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, PhilB said:

Two to the left of the colonoel - a sergeant wearing a Sam Browne?

It’s not a Sam Browne Phil, but a sliding pistol brace.  It indicates that he’s employed in a staff appointment and armed with a pistol rather than a rifle.  The brace was intended to support the weight of a pistol and had previously been used for a sword until they were withdrawn to ceremonial only.

[PhilB]

Thanks, Frog. I don`t recall seeing sliding pistol braces in sergeants of British regiments. Were they about?

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, PhilB said:

Thanks, Frog. I don`t recall seeing sliding pistol braces in sergeants of British regiments. Were they about?

Yes they were issued initially for swords as mentioned and then later for pistols, especially in tropical dress (KD).  Many were made in India at the government leather factory in Kanpur.  Several of the Chinese SNCOs are wearing them too.

Edited 25 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

The men wearing berets are members of the Shanghai Volunteer Corps Armoured Car Company and the gunners are SVC Artillery.       Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

23 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The men wearing berets are members of the Shanghai Volunteer Corps Armoured Car Company and the gunners are SVC Artillery.       Pete.

I wondered if the artillerymen might be volunteers Pete.  I’ve not heard of the SV Volunteer Armoured Cars before so that’s especially interesting.  It’s intriguing that they’re wearing MGC collar badges, somewhere there should be a priced vocabulary of stores and necessaries (PVCN) to justify the supply chain issues, although I suppose that the Shanghai equivalent of a County Association would have funded it anyway.

For @Mikhail: From the star shaped regimental crest you get a real feel for the multinational aspirations of the unit.  There was an entire battalion of White Russians in the corps and when the British left Shanghai the Russians elected to stay behind and work for the Japanese.  By 1945 when the Red Army invaded from Siberia the battalion had disappeared.

”Background of the SVC:

The Shanghai Volunteer Corps was an international militia organised under the Shanghai Municipal Council to protect foreign interests in the city. They were first formed in 1853 to defend the international settlements in Shanghai during the uprising of the Small Swords Society and over the following years the strength and composition of the corps varied greatly. 

The volunteers came from foreigners (British, American, French, German, Russian, Austro-Hungarian, Portuguese, Japanese and others from all over the world) living in Shanghai, some of whom were paid regulars while others were unpaid part-time soldiers. Some soldiers were formed into national companies, others into mixed units. In 1910 the German contingent consisted of one regular company ("Prinz Heinrich Kompangie") and one reserve company. 

The SVC never saw serious action although it was called to mobilisation on several occasions such as during the Tai-Ping and Boxer Rebellions. When the First World War broke out the SVC again mobilised but at least forty of the German volunteers in Shanghai left to join the 7. Kompagnie of the III. Seebataillon in Tsingtao. 

The remaining German volunteers in Shanghai stayed in service until they were disbanded when China declared war on Germany in 1917. The entire Shanghai Volunteer Corps was finally disbanded by the Japanese in 1942.

Uniforms of the SVC
The SVC was largely armed and uniformed from British stocks with Australian style slouch hats, though some nationalities wore their own army uniforms with SVC insignia. Often a mixture of these options was worn.”

Images courtesy of “Historical Photographs of China” under conditions of reasonable educational use.

 

 

 

Edited 26 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie2]

Thank you and well done Frogsmile and Pete, I had been waiting with much interest to read what people made of the photo. I gave up when I realised they weren‘t Cheshires 

Charlie

[Mikhail]

13 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

For @Mikhail: From the star shaped regimental crest you get a real feel for the multinational aspirations of the unit.  There was an entire battalion of White Russians in the corps and when the British left Shanghai the Russians elected to stay behind and work for the Japanese.  By 1945 when the Red Army invaded from Siberia the battalion had disappeared.

 

thanks a lot! I have read about SVC history.

Here I see typical russian face  with St. George 4th class cross , probably from Russian battalion.

 

Edited 26 August , 2021 by Mikhail

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Mikhail said:

thanks a lot! I have read about SVC history.

Here I see typical russian face  with St. George 4th class cross , probably from Russian battalion.

 

Yes I think so Mikhail.  I wonder what happened to him.  I found the story of the SVC very interesting, but it then led me on to the White Russian military diaspora, and that was absolutely fascinating: https://laststandonzombieisland.com/2014/09/07/the-exiled-white-russian-officers-an-80-year-odyssey/

Also see: https://altcensored.com/watch?v=oUJ-5RxfyeE

Edited 26 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

This photo has sent me burrowing away into the web in search of the SVC and I've really enjoyed reading about something very new and very different.  Thanks for posting Mikhail.  I however note we have not specifically answered your initial query of "place".  Shanghai of course but the location of the building has defeated me.  The Racecourse was a favourite location for the military and specifically the SVC on camps.  The former British Consulate was another possibility I explored.  Neither obviously fit simply due to lack of photographic coverage.  I'm intrigued by the Obelisk which is used as the centrepiece therefore must be significant.  I imagine I can see a cross on the face and think I can also see some writing ....... but not too sure about that.  I've found nothing on this monument - anybody else?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

This photo has sent me burrowing away into the web in search of the SVC and I've really enjoyed reading about something very new and very different.  Thanks for posting Mikhail.  I however note we have not specifically answered your initial query of "place".  Shanghai of course but the location of the building has defeated me.  The Racecourse was a favourite location for the military and specifically the SVC on camps.  The former British Consulate was another possibility I explored.  Neither obviously fit simply due to lack of photographic coverage.  I'm intrigued by the Obelisk which is used as the centrepiece therefore must be significant.  I imagine I can see a cross on the face and think I can also see some writing ....... but not too sure about that.  I've found nothing on this monument - anybody else?

Were I a betting man I’d say that it’s the Regimental Headquarters building (which for auxiliaries might well have included officers’ and sergeants’ messes) and that the obelisk commemorates the “Battle of the Muddy Flat” that was so seminal in the corps history that it’s date, 4th April 1854, appeared in pride of place on the scroll beneath the star on insignia.  It would be a natural venue for so many auxiliaries, all from the same unit, to congregate.  They were a very wealthy unit in their epoch.  Apparently there was a “regimental club and gymnasium” too: https://www.virtualshanghai.net/Asset/Source/bnBook_ID-1264_No-1.pdf

 It also mentions an annual inspection and that rather fits with the construct of the photo that started this thread.

I enclose a photo of the Japanese Company after it was formed that appears to taken in front of perhaps the same building, certainly the columns are very similar.  It suggests that it was a regular venue for the SVC.

Edited 26 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

Got it......the photo was taken in the grounds of the British Consulate, Shanghai.  Here is a photo (Public Domain) of the 1911 George V Coronation in Shanghai for comparison.  The Lion statues, clearly visible on Mikhail's OP are highlighted below.

Edited 26 August , 2021 by TullochArd

[TullochArd]

..... regarding the white centrepiece that I incorrectly suggested was an obelisk.  The photo below (Public Domain) shows it is a cross.  It pre-dates the Great War being shown on similar reliably dated photos from 1902. 

It likely went the same way as the Shanghai War Memorial on the Bund during the Second World War.

 

 

Edited 27 August , 2021 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

Excellent detective work TullochArd.  It’s very interesting to see the whole building.  It really evokes the different world that existed in parts of China at that time.  Fascinating stuff.  I’m glad I’m not a betting man. 

Edited 26 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

The Colonel on the OP is Col William Fanshawe Louden Gordon (Great War service in Norfolk Regt/Staff), then Commandant SVC and on his left is possibly his ADC, Major LC Camp.  Below is another photo, identified as May 1925, of Gordon speaking to Major-General Luard, CinC British Forces China......and sporting a perhaps, what would become in the future, a far less controvercial moustache than in the OP.   

Gordon received a CBE in 1928 on the Diplomatic Service and Overseas List and was described as "late Commandant of the Shanghai Volunteer Corps" ....... in the OP and below he is only wearing a seven pointed CMG (CBE and CMG being neck worn awards) so it suggests to me both photos in this thread well pre-date 1928.  I have found no dates for the CMG but he died in March 1931.

Edited 27 August , 2021 by TullochArd

[rolt968]

20 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Were I a betting man I’d say that it’s the Regimental Headquarters building (which for auxiliaries might well have included officers’ and sergeants’ messes) and that the obelisk commemorates the “Battle of the Muddy Flat” that was so seminal in the corps history that it’s date, 4th April 1854, appeared in pride of place on the scroll beneath the star on insignia.  It would be a natural venue for so many auxiliaries, all from the same unit, to congregate.  They were a very wealthy unit in their epoch.  Apparently there was a “regimental club and gymnasium” too: https://www.virtualshanghai.net/Asset/Source/bnBook_ID-1264_No-1.pdf

 It also mentions an annual inspection and that rather fits with the construct of the photo that started this thread.

I enclose a photo of the Japanese Company after it was formed that appears to taken in front of perhaps the same building, certainly the columns are very similar.  It suggests that it was a regular venue for the SVC.

If the original photo was taken in the early to mid 1920s, might there also be Japanese NCOs?

Also, thank you to everyone for this very interesting thread.

Edited 27 August , 2021 by rolt968

[TullochArd]

15 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

If the original photo was taken in the early to mid 1920s, might there also be Japanese NCOs?

This fellow is wearing a medal with a peculiar clasp and small disc in a Japanese style? Similar to the Japanese Siberian Intervention Medal 1918-22. 

Edited 27 August , 2021 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, rolt968 said:

If the original photo was taken in the early to mid 1920s, might there also be Japanese NCOs?

Also, thank you to everyone for this very interesting thread.

Yes I should think there must be the usual balance of NCOs given that the photo apparently shows the Japanese Company after it was formed.  TullochArd’s discovery of the venue in the OP photo has made made me wonder if the Japanese company were similarly, photographed outside the Japanese Consulate.

Edited 27 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

On 27/08/2021 at 12:33, TullochArd said:

This fellow is wearing a medal with a peculiar clasp and small disc in a Japanese style? Similar to the Japanese Siberian Intervention Medal 1918-22. 

It’s an intriguing thought, but the rank and efficiency star badges appear to be British style so I assume that he might be a Chinese auxiliary.  As far as I can see the Japanese wore a uniform styled to suit their military culture, although at that time they were ostensibly Anglophiles, especially in the Imperial Japanese Navy, which maintained an exchange programme with the RN into the mid 1930s.

Edited 13 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE