MOD SERVICE RECORDS MOVING TO KEW

[tullybrone]

It would appear the current process of obtaining post 1921 service records from MOD on payment of £30 is coming to a close .

The transfer of post 1921 service files to the National Archives is commencing (6 years to complete) for personnel born up to and including 1939 (so will cover all National Servicemen). 10 million records in total including 500,000 with WW1 service.

It would appear that TNA won’t release records until 115 years after the subjects birth.

Steve

https://livelb.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/news/mod-records-project/

Edited 18 August , 2021 by tullybrone

[Keith_history_buff]

They've been threatening to make an announcement since the end of March.

As you'll see from the screenshot posted on the following thread, these are 99th on a list.

In 2016-17 a study took place, and it gets a mention here

 

[RedCoat]

Well that made for depressing reading. 

[Keith_history_buff]

I think they have tried to manage expectations.

 

Quote

The records included in this collection cover personnel in all three services, Royal Navy, Army and Royal Air Force, where the individual has a date of birth prior to or up to 1939.... MOD and The National Archives are working to ensure that their long-term preservation can be assured before they are made accessible to public both online and on site at Kew....

To begin, once the records are transferred to us we must ensure that all the material can be stored safely and to archival standards. In practice, this means removing them from their original packaging and placing them in to specially made archival boxes that will keep the records free from any degradation or damage. In addition, we will index and catalogue all the records so researchers can locate them and with almost 10 million records, this is a significant task.

As these are personnel records, they naturally contain a range of personal data including medical information. To protect the information in these records, closure will apply until 115 years past the date of birth of the individual. Whether or not the material can be open to all or closed fully or in part will be assessed on this basis or upon request under relevant data protection and freedom of information laws.

 

[Anthony Ewen]

Many thanks for the update - much appreciated (and apologies for the slow response!)

Tony

[Keith_history_buff]

There's been no change as of yet to the existing publication scheme for service records. They did put up a notice on 6 August to advise that army service record request lead times were in excess of 12 months, and they were trying to address the backlog.

[tootrock]

I recently put in a request for the papers of a man who was in the RAF, and the results came back within about 2 months, much to my great surprise!

Martin

[TrevorHH]

 

Just some thoughts

Most interesting comments. I recently put in two requests for post 1921 service records. The first one which I sent in was for a man who served in WW1 and then continued his service till the 1930s. That appears to have gone through as have had an acknowledgement that this is being dealt with and that they will get back to me with his service record. The other was for a WW2 serviceman and have had my cheque plus form sent back to me saying 'As part of the Defence Records Management Project, a percentage of archived army service files have been transferred to the National Archives to allow them to start work on these records being digitised and being made available to the public. As the file you have requested has been transferred as part of the project , we are returning your application and payment to you.' The rest of the letter (which is obviously a standard one) refers me to Kew suggesting I visit there to do my own research. Not worried about that as am a regular visitor there (or used to be pre-COVID) however was wondering if the MOD has retained any info at all on the files they have transferred since this chap's service record is probably the only document(s) that will identify what unit he was with in WW2 (family don't know and usual sources on FMP/newspapers etc etc cannot help). Therefore referring me to Kew is no help for the moment to do any research. Presumably when these records are released at Kew any restrictions can be relieved by authorisation by a relative  as they have been up to now?

Trevor 

[tullybrone]

7 hours ago, TrevorHH said:

 

Just some thoughts

Most interesting comments. I recently put in two requests for post 1921 service records. The first one which I sent in was for a man who served in WW1 and then continued his service till the 1930s. That appears to have gone through as have had an acknowledgement that this is being dealt with and that they will get back to me with his service record. The other was for a WW2 serviceman and have had my cheque plus form sent back to me saying 'As part of the Defence Records Management Project, a percentage of archived army service files have been transferred to the National Archives to allow them to start work on these records being digitised and being made available to the public. As the file you have requested has been transferred as part of the project , we are returning your application and payment to you.' The rest of the letter (which is obviously a standard one) refers me to Kew suggesting I visit there to do my own research. Not worried about that as am a regular visitor there (or used to be pre-COVID) however was wondering if the MOD has retained any info at all on the files they have transferred since this chap's service record is probably the only document(s) that will identify what unit he was with in WW2 (family don't know and usual sources on FMP/newspapers etc etc cannot help). Therefore referring me to Kew is no help for the moment to do any research. Presumably when these records are released at Kew any restrictions can be relieved by authorisation by a relative  as they have been up to now?

Trevor 

Thanks for posting. It’s the first indication I’ve heard that the transfer of physical files from MOD to NA has commenced.

I hope you don’t mind but I’ve copied and posted your account in to a topic on ww2talk for the information of members there.

Regards

Steve

PS

Can you post details of the material MOD provide as members on ww2talk report that new information handling rules appear to being applied and MOD are withholding B103 and redacting some of the other forms.

[TrevorHH]

Steve

Thanks for your message. I will let the group know what I receive for my WW1 man who served until the 1930s. Can you let me know which form B103 is please and do you know if the members on WW2 Forum had used authorisations by next of kin to get their service records? I only apply for a service record from the MOD if I have this  because they will redact info if you do not have authorisation from a relative.  Am wondering if its worth replying to my standard letter received from them as I believe it will be some time before the NA releases what they have and if someone can at least give me the service no, rank and unit of my WW2 man I can do some preliminary research in the interim. The MOD may have retained other records which may help in this regard? What do you think?

Cheers

Trevor

[tullybrone]

2 hours ago, TrevorHH said:

Steve

Thanks for your message. I will let the group know what I receive for my WW1 man who served until the 1930s.
 

Can you let me know which form B103 is please and do you know if the members on WW2 Forum had used authorisations by next of kin to get their service records?

 

I only apply for a service record from the MOD if I have this  because they will redact info if you do not have authorisation from a relative. 

 

Am wondering if its worth replying to my standard letter received from them as I believe it will be some time before the NA releases what they have and if someone can at least give me the service no, rank and unit of my WW2 man I can do some preliminary research in the interim.

 

The MOD may have retained other records which may help in this regard? What do you think?

Cheers

Trevor

Hi Trevor,

The B103 is the Casualty Form that records a man’s movements in detail and sometimes records other matters such as promotion/demotion, disciplinary matters, marriage, birth of children, leave, hospitalization locations etc  - some detail is transferred to the Statement of Services form.

The applicants who post queries on WW2 site are almost always blood relatives of the service person.

In respect of your points about writing to Kew & MOD Glasgow I’d say “nothing ventured nothing gained” but I’d be sceptical of getting anything of value from either source as staff will likely hide behind “information handling” rules and confidentiality.

Steve

 

EDIT TO ADD

In relation to your comment about NA requiring NOK permission to access files.

It may well be that files will be drip fed into the public domain, and made available to download via NA Discovery catalogue, when the anniversary of the subject’s 115th birthday is reached.

I suspect that the NA protocols for access before that anniversary is reached hasn’t been agreed this early in the transfer process.

In the fullness of time I anticipate that once a sufficient number of records have been digitised to make it financially viable they will be made available online via FMP/Ancestry or similar. NA will need to generate income to pay for the conservation process.

Edited 17 December , 2021 by tullybrone

[TrevorHH]

Steve

Had a feeling that was the form you meant, did not remember its number. Disappointing as  you probably know thats the most useful document in the entire service record when one is researching a serviceman.  As to items being left out or redacted from service record sent to people, I guess in future the relevant passage from the article on the NA website will be this one:  Whether or not the material can be open to all or closed fully or in part will be assessed on this basis or upon request under relevant data protection and freedom of information laws.  I am just starting to research a man who served in the RAMC in WW2. I received his full service record back in  Spring 2021 including the B103 form. His son for whom I am researching his father's military career gave me a letter that his father sent to the MOD back in the early 1980s. They had refused to send him a copy of his service record and given him only a brief summary of it much to his disappointment. Will let you know if I get a reply to my email to the MOD. 

Cheers

Trevor

[fremlin]

In May 2020 I put in a request for a relative's service record relating to the early 1920's and - not surprisingly in view of pandemic - heard nothing so made a gentle email request for an update in mid-September. To my surprise I received a fairly prompt and helpful response:

"As part of the Defence Records Management Project a small percentage of Army service files have been transferred to the National Archives (TNA) to allow them to start work on these records being digitised and eventually at some point in the future being available to the public (although this is many years off the planning has started). Your relatives file is one of the files that has been taken as part of the project, however we have arranged for members of our team to be placed on the TNA authorised requestors list so we can continue to access these records and deal with requests from the public. 

We will request that the records are returned to us for copying and issuing to you however it may take a while longer for this to be arranged."

I received the records on December 23rd together with a polite request for another cheque for £30 (as the original was out of date) so I'm happy , but I'm not sure if that reassures people?

 

[tullybrone]

5 minutes ago, fremlin said:

In May 2020 I put in a request for a relative's service record relating to the early 1920's and - not surprisingly in view of pandemic - heard nothing so made a gentle email request for an update in mid-September. To my surprise I received a fairly prompt and helpful response:

"As part of the Defence Records Management Project a small percentage of Army service files have been transferred to the National Archives (TNA) to allow them to start work on these records being digitised and eventually at some point in the future being available to the public (although this is many years off the planning has started). Your relatives file is one of the files that has been taken as part of the project, however we have arranged for members of our team to be placed on the TNA authorised requestors list so we can continue to access these records and deal with requests from the public. 

We will request that the records are returned to us for copying and issuing to you however it may take a while longer for this to be arranged."

I received the records on December 23rd together with a polite request for another cheque for £30 (as the original was out of date) so I'm happy , but I'm not sure if that reassures people?

 

Thanks for the update.

Reassuring to hear that MOD have the facility at this stage of the project to “recall” files to enable a meaningful response to be sent to an enquirer. 
 

Steve

[TrevorHH]

Just an update to my previous posts above on this topic. Firstly I have now received the service record for the man who served in both World Wars from the MOD. It is not redacted in any way and it includes two B103 forms one covering service in WW1 and the other for WW2. As to the WW2 service record transferred to the NA, I emailed the MOD to see if at least they could give me Vic Ody's service no and unit. They were able to give me his service no 5349647 but not his unit as the file is now with the NA at Kew. However my subsequent research based on that no has identified the Royal Berkshire Regt as his initial unit but have feeling he transferred to other units during the war so its a little help but not much. Will have to put Vic Ody to one side and await developments re WW2 record at Kew. 

Cheers

Trevor

[tullybrone]

1 hour ago, TrevorHH said:

Just an update to my previous posts above on this topic. Firstly I have now received the service record for the man who served in both World Wars from the MOD. It is not redacted in any way and it includes two B103 forms one covering service in WW1 and the other for WW2. As to the WW2 service record transferred to the NA, I emailed the MOD to see if at least they could give me Vic Ody's service no and unit. They were able to give me his service no 5349647 but not his unit as the file is now with the NA at Kew. However my subsequent research based on that no has identified the Royal Berkshire Regt as his initial unit but have feeling he transferred to other units during the war so its a little help but not much. Will have to put Vic Ody to one side and await developments re WW2 record at Kew. 

Cheers

Trevor

Thanks for the update Trevor.

 

Steve

[David Porter]

The first tranche of Ministry of Defence (MOD) service personnel records are now available for ordering. Series WO 420 currently relates to the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers regiment. They also only relate to service personnel with a date of birth greater than 115 years.

Records Now Available

[seaJane]

Hah. REME grandad (RAF cadet 1918) would have been 112 this April so no joy there .

[Keith_history_buff]

A quick search on the Discovery catalogue brings back results.

By revising the search, to try and limit it to soldiers born in 1898, brings back 363 results. The first person on the list has "1898" as their archive reference suffix, being born on 25 May1907. For this latter soldier, it states on the record "This record is closed. Opening date: 01 January 2023".

It is different for the record of W Marmion, born 5 October 1898, a date more than 116 years ago

 

 

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

This will begin to close a gap in current knowledge, as the incomplete database issued by the MOD some years ago, only listed soldiers born up to 31/12/1900. There have been many queries on the forum over the years about young soldiers serving under age in the Great War. If the National Archive will now allow access to records of men born up to and including 1907, then (assuming they served Post 1921), then their service records should have survived.

[Keith_history_buff]

It looks like the current tranche of records that are indexed is for men who served in the Royal Engineers from January 1921 onwards whose dates of birth are before 1910. 

[charlie962]

There were also errors and omissions in the original MoD spreadsheet so it will be interesting to see how many 'new' records emerge. I note that the full forenames are still not shown. 

Charlie

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I wonder if we were to ask the MOD nicely whether, in view of the ongoing transfer of records, they would in the interim, release a database of details of records held for soldiers born after 31/12/1900 and whose 115th birthday (currently 7/4/1907), has passed?

Or would an FOI request  (or the threat of one) be needed ?

 

[Keith_history_buff]

The public sector body would have the right of refusal, if there are plans in place for the information to be scheduled to be imminently released, as I understand FoI.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

The records are meant to be transferred to Kew in totality over the next 6 or 7 years. At that time, all the details of such soldiers would be available. Do you mean Keith that a 6 or 7 year timeframe might be used by the MOD as a definition of 'imminent' to prevent earlier disclosure, assuming there are no plans to release the dataset earlier?