Warrant Officer Frederick Simpson

[horatio2]

22 hours ago, Frank_East said:

As regards ranks, when the RAF was created from 1 April 1918,rank designations and uniforms for the new service had not been effected by the new AM. Consequently transfers from the RFC and RNAS retained their previous ranks..

A cross-check between the list of RNAS Warrant Officers and the 1 April 1918 Air Force List shows that this was not the case. With few exceptions, former RNAS Warrant Officers Grade 1 appear in the Air Force List as Lieutenants RAF and former RNAS Warrant Officers Grade 2 as 2nd Lieutenants RAF. This applies to all branches: Technical, Admin , Dirigible, etc. This is clearly the case for WO Simpson RNAS - straight to 2/Lt (Tech) RAF on 1 April 1918. His absence from the RAF ORs' records in AIR 79 and in the RAF Muster Roll and his absence from the 313001+ RAF numbers is thereby explained - he was never an RAF OR and moved straight from the RN Officers' Section to that of the RAF.

15 hours ago, Frank_East said:

The "RAF Casualty Form" being used is Army Form B103c referring to a 2/L which would does not agree with the military career of Fredrick Simpson although there is reference to RN and RNAS service on the form. Is there evidence that Simpson entered the RAF from the Army?  

The answer to the above question is 'No', Army Forms B.103 were not just used by the Army (the Admiralty used the form for the Royal Naval Division) and I expect the RAF used an existing form rather then create a new one.

The Casualty Card shown above is undoubtedly correct except that the 'Date of Joining' is not accurate: he joined the RN as an ERA in August 1909 (not 1908) and moved across to the RNAS in December 1913 (not 1912) changing rating from ERA to CPO Mech in July 1914. As explained above, the rank of 2/Lt RAF is absolutely correct and in full agreement with his career in the RNAS and RAF.

The loss of his RAF record from 1918 to 1932 (except for the 'Casualty Card') is very regrettable and I do not think Kew is the culprit.

Edited 7 August , 2021 by horatio2

[Frank_East]

Reviewing the information already known about Frederick Simpson is that in the photograph, both individuals are wearing RAF commissioned officer Dress jackets, the difference being that the RH man jacket sleeve indicates from the rank insignia that he is a Flying Officer while the LH man does not appear to be wearing any jacket sleeve rank insignia. The LH side of the image lacks clarity in the jacket sleeve area.

This photograph would have been taken after 1 August 1919 when the new RAF commissioned ranks were assimilated and implemented by order of an AMWO, dated  25 August 1919.Concurrent with these developments was the rundown of the RAF in terms of manpower and war material to meet peacetime requirements, an exercise carried after the end of both world wars.

Another policy brought in to match officer manpower to peacetime requirements was a measure to impose an age for compulsory retirement of commissioned officers holding substantive rank as shown in the Air Force List. For Subalterns (those below below the rank of Captain) the Higher Age Limit was put at 27 years and Compulsory Retirement at 42 years.

From this it is possible that Fredrick Simpson's RAF career was curtailed at this time and his service was terminated. It has been said that there is a limited record of his post RNAS RAF service apart from his service with No 5 and No 209 Squadrons and then his service as a F/L in 1932.

Looking at the cut of manpower in the transition to a RAF peacetime force. In February 1919,the RAF officer strength was put at 32154 and by January 1920,the officer strength had been cut to 7032 from the effect of the AM policies. It is possible that Fredrick Simpson's career was cut short on account of these policies.

Perhaps the Air Force Lists of the early 1920s might give further information on Simpson as would the 1921 Census when made public.

Edited 8 August , 2021 by Frank_East

[topgun1918]

The Air Force List for April 1918 shows Frederick Simpson as a Technical Officer with the rank of 2nd Lieutenant.  The Air Force List for December 1922 shows Simpson as a Flying Officer with No 7 Group at Andover.  The Air Force List for September 1939 shows Simpson with the Personal Number 13095 and as having retired with the rank of Flight Lieutenant (seniority from 18 January 1932); at the moment I haven't tracked down the date of his retirement.

Graeme

 

[Andrew Upton]

On 05/08/2021 at 16:12, MikeW said:

 

3 hours ago, Frank_East said:

...Reviewing the information already known about Frederick Simpson is that in the photograph, both individuals are wearing RAF commissioned officer Dress jackets, the difference being that the RH man jacket sleeve indicates from the rank insignia that he is a Flying Officer while the LH man does not appear to be wearing any jacket sleeve rank insignia. The LH side of the image lacks clarity in the jacket sleeve area...

 I don't believe either man in this photo is wearing RAF specific uniform. Both men wear uniforms with epaulettes, which were omitted on the original 1918 type RAF officers jackets. I suspect the man on the viewers right is possibly RNAS - his cap badge is clear enough to show it is of the bigger bullion RN style and not one of the RAF types. This would also match with the presence of epaulettes, the presence of some form of cuff rank, plus the black patent peak to his cap.  The man on the viewers right by comparison is wearing nothing that would obviously mark him out as anything other than a standard infantry officer:

 

Edited 8 August , 2021 by Andrew Upton

[MikeW]

18 hours ago, topgun1918 said:

The Air Force List for April 1918 shows Frederick Simpson as a Technical Officer with the rank of 2nd Lieutenant.  The Air Force List for December 1922 shows Simpson as a Flying Officer with No 7 Group at Andover.  The Air Force List for September 1939 shows Simpson with the Personal Number 13095 and as having retired with the rank of Flight Lieutenant (seniority from 18 January 1932); at the moment I haven't tracked down the date of his retirement.

Graeme

 

Hi Grahame,

Air force List April 1918 - Agree

Air force List December 1922 - his Naval Record (ADM188) has him  "traced to the Air Ministry" in August 1920 (not sure if that is a Naval term for "with the RAF"). 

Air force List for Sept 1939 - Agree. Simpson retired voluntarily on 26th February 1935 but reverted to the Active list when he returned to Technical Branch on 1st September  1941 finally being discharged 16th March 1947. He seems to have been acting in an instructional role in these latter years.

I have an unconfirmed note that he was with 12 Wing in Ireland from 6th June 1922

 

Mike

[MikeW]

18 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

 I don't believe either man in this photo is wearing RAF specific uniform. Both men wear uniforms with epaulettes, which were omitted on the original 1918 type RAF officers jackets. I suspect the man on the viewers right is possibly RNAS - his cap badge is clear enough to show it is of the bigger bullion RN style and not one of the RAF types. This would also match with the presence of epaulettes, the presence of some form of cuff rank, plus the black patent peak to his cap.  The man on the viewers right by comparison is wearing nothing that would obviously mark him out as anything other than a standard infantry officer:

 

 

 

Andrew,

Stewart Taylor stated that the photo was from May 1918 when 209 were under canvas at a very crowded Bertangles, he didn't usually get these things wrong as he had access to many Canadian pilots and their photograph collections.

the officer on the right, Albert Shelly was a Lt (RNVR) with the RNAS - hence the fouled Anchor cap badge he is still wearing. His Air76 states that when he joined the RAF his Rank was Lieutenant and Temporary Captain.

the officer on the left, Simpson, obviously has a naval Cap Badge, but as you say, not clear enough to discern detail.

 

A general question - These officers were in France for a month or so before the RNAS  and RFC were absorbed into the RAF, and had been on a Squadron "rest" at Dover in January. Until they went on leave, how on earth would they acquire the new RAF uniform which I assume, as per the RNAS, they had to source themselves?

[horatio2]

35 minutes ago, MikeW said:

his Naval Record (ADM188) has him  "traced to the Air Ministry" in August 1920 (not sure if that is a Naval term for "with the RAF"). 

One cannot be certain but this 1920 entry may have had to do with the issue of his 1914 Star and Clasp, The Admiralty Medal Roll shows that these were "Issued to Air Ministry for disposal to man." and perhaps this was a 'trace' to confirm that he was still on the books of the RAF. In the event his 1914 Star & Clasp were issued to the Air Ministry 23/9/1924. The trace may have been on some other administrative matter but you get the idea.

[topgun1918]

Hi Mike

The Air Force List for August 1920 shows Simpson as a Flying Officer with the Aeronautical Commission of Control (Germany) while the July 1922 Air Force List shows him as a Flying Officer with No 12 Group in Ireland as of 6 June 1922.

Graeme

[MikeW]

Hi Graeme,

re the AFLs' for 1920 and 1922

Whilst Simpson had the following very interesting snippet in his ADM188 record:

"Selected for the course of instruction in Flying, beginning 17.5.13 at the Central Flying School"

                       I have so far found no evidence he attended the course (there might be an course attendee list somewhere), and he certainly doesn't have an RAeC ticket. When with the RAF, why would he go from a Technical Officer, to a Flying Officer, and then back to a Technical Officer?

Mike

 

[Tawhiri]

24 minutes ago, MikeW said:

When with the RAF, why would he go from a Technical Officer, to a Flying Officer, and then back to a Technical Officer?

I think you need to make a distinction between the rank Flying Officer, and the actual branch of the RAF that that officer is employed in, i.e. Technical or Flying. In this case Flying Officer refers to his rank, not the branch of the RAF he is employed in.

Edited to add that good old Wikipedia has this to say about the rank Flying Officer:

The rank title does not imply that an officer in the rank of flying officer flies. Some flying officers are aircrew, but many are ground branch officers. Amongst the ground branches some flying officers have command of flights.

Edited 10 August , 2021 by Tawhiri

[horatio2]

20 minutes ago, MikeW said:

he certainly doesn't have an RAeC ticket.

A number of ERAs did qualify as pilots from July 1912 up to August 1914. SIMPSON was not among them, as you have dfiscovered. Few were employed as pilots in WW1.

20 minutes ago, MikeW said:

When with the RAF, why would he go from a Technical Officer, to a Flying Officer, and then back to a Technical Officer?

I do not believe this happened. I thnink the answer is that Technical Officer indicated his RAF Branch (Technical, Admin, Dirigible, Aeroplane, etc) whereas Flying Officer was his rank (eventually). Thus he could be a Flying Officer (Technical).

Edited 10 August , 2021 by horatio2

[Keith_history_buff]

On 07/08/2021 at 08:49, horatio2 said:

The loss of his RAF record from 1918 to 1932 (except for the 'Casualty Card') is very regrettable and I do not think Kew is the culprit.

It is my belief this is physically held at Swadlincote, and is related to service number 389058, with "/35" indicating the year he retired from the RAF. His officer record relating to number 13095 issued at the time of his interwar commission, does appear to have been sent out in July 2021. 

[Keith_history_buff]

I suspect that his details of service up to 1932 have been "filed" in the "389058/35" folder. I've come across two army officer files at Kew with details for more than one man, and have encountered the same for an air force officer in the AIR 76 series. The file sent in July has MOD Reference Number: XOR000021559 in relation to the "13095" folder.

The other file has MOD Reference Number:XPE000074112 in relation to the "389058/35" folder.

 

[MikeW]

Having received the  "missing" file from the RAF Disclosures Unit after a lot of nagging, here is the remarkably long service career of Frederick Simson (written from the perspective of his RNAS employment):

Simpson, Frederick                    W.O. II          Engineering Officer

 Born 17^th August 1877, Manchester

Apprenticed to John Fowler & Sons, Leeds as a Fitter & Turner in August 1903

Joined Royal Navy as an Engine Room Artificer 5th class on 31^st August 1909

Joined RFC Naval Wing on 15^th May, 1913 (Navy Records) or February 1913 (RAF Records)

RFC Naval Wing became RNAS on 1^st July 1914, promoted to CPO Mechanic II

No.3 and No.1 Squadrons in 1914

Dover on 1^st June 1915

Promoted to W.O. II on 18^th January 1917 (RNAS records) January 1916 (RAF records)

No.9 Squadron from  January 1918

209 Squadron RAF on 1^st April 1918, transferred with rank of 2Lt (Technical)

Admitted to No.12 Casualty Clearing Station with Influenza on 12^th June 1918

Discharged back to 209 Squadron on 17^th June 1918

Attached to No.5 Squadron RAF on 5^th January 2019

Home Establishment from 21^st May 2019

Promoted Lt (Technical) on 28^th May 1919

Aeronautical Commission of Control (Germany) on 8^th September 1919

Promoted Flying Officer (Technical) Grade A on 1^st October 1919

No 12 Wing, Ireland on 6^th June 1922

Promoted to FLt  on 18^th January 1932

On Retired List (at his own request) on 26^th February 1935

Reemployed by Air Ministry as Civilian Technical Officer and appointed to Directorate of Equipment E15 on August 3^rd 1937

Placed in charge of Technical Section E15 in May 1939 (in charge of 3 FLts, 1 HCO and 7 C0s)

Reverted to Employed List on 1^st September 1941

Transferred to Technical Branch on 1^st September 1941 (DG of E)

SDL on 17^th October 1941

Acting Squadron Leader from 12^th September 1942

British Air Command from 12^th September 1942

Temporary Squadron Leader from 1^st January 1943

No 1 PDC on 10^th February 1944

PHW Morecombe on 15^th May 1944

No 30 Maintenance Unit from 20^th October 1944 (or 12^th July 1945)

No 1 Personnel Holding Unit from 9^th December 1946

Reverted to Retired List on 16^th March 1947 retaining the rank of Squadron Leader

Died on 5^th July 1965

 

Fredrick Simpson was experienced in the earliest WW1 engines through to Clergets and Bentleys, through the interwar years, and then through to the WW2 engines like the Merlin - if it went Suck - Sqeeze - Bang - Blow then he was your man! I wonder if he even touched on the early jets?

I am still left with a few  queries, what was an HCO and a CO (quite obviously NOT a Commanding Officer)

Also the unit abbreviations SDL, PDC and PHW (I believe that Morecombe was a type of Engineering Training College)

 

Mike

[Keith_history_buff]

I would take a stab at Personnel Dispersal Centre or similar
https://www.greatwarforum.org/search/?q="Dispersal Centre"&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy

[Keith_history_buff]

As for the other two mystery abbreviations from 1944, they fall outside of the scope of this forum, but would imagine that the likes of on ww2talk or RAFCommands forum or similar. 

Glad that they were able to retrieve and pass on copies of the mis-filed missing documents.

Best of luck with your ongoing WW2 research.
Keith

[MikeW]

Thanks for your invaluable help Keith. I've never been in the position where I have had to do much WW2 research before - people like Collishaw and EW Norton were considered "important" so all that interwar and WW2 work has previously been done by others. Nobody has been interested in a humble Engine wizard!

Mike