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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Warrant Officer Frederick Simpson


MikeW

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I an still struggling with Engineering Specialist, Warrant Officer Frederick Simpson in 1918/19 - he had a very long service with the air services, joining the RFC Naval Wing on 15th May 1913, having previously served with the Royal Navy as an ERA (whatever that is) from 1909. My problems start with the 1st April 1918 to 1920 - what would his RAF rank have been? Warrant Officer? Sergeant Major? 

The attached photo from 1918 shows Simpson on the viewer's left together with Records Officer, Lt Albert Shelly. The late Stewart Taylor captioned this photo as Lts Simpson and Shelly - though Simson can clearly be seen to not have any  officer's insignia. In fact, he didn't make Lt until 1932! He eventually ended up with the rank of Squadron Leader in 1942.

Allegedly his Air 79 record is available on Find My Past and on Ancestry - my wife has an enormously expensive (in my opinion) Ancestry account but they want my credit card details AGAIN to let me look at the Air 79 entry - I am reluctant to commit just to view one document having already forked out a vast sum to  RAF Disposals for his later career in the RAF. Could anyone with a Fold 3 account take a peek for me please?

 

Mike

 

Simpson and Shelley.JPG

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1 hour ago, MikeW said:

having previously served with the Royal Navy as an ERA (whatever that is)

An ERA is an Engine Room Artificer, which fits with his occupation of fitter and turner on joining the Royal Navy in 1909.

Not having much joy in finding an obvious match for him in the Air Force muster roll on 1 April 1918, although there are several F Simpson's with the rank Sergeant Mechanic.

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To help us find him more accurately and hopefully to speed things - Do you have his number(s) please?

:-) M

 

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This would appear to be the record of the continuation of his service with the RNAS as a warrant officer.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9749669

This is being matched with the following RAF service record with the service number 26353 by the National Archives, the full record is available through FindMyPast, which I unfortunately don't have paid access to.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10740577

Not sure however, if this is the right Frederick Simpson given the service number the OP has just posted. Frederick Simpson, service number 26353, shows in the RAF muster roll for 1 April 1918, as a Sergeant Mechanic, with the trade of driver, which is a bit hard to square with someone who started life as a turner and fitter.

Edited by Tawhiri
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As Horatio just said, M1162 when he joined the Navy.

 

I also have an RAF  Number 13095

His Date of Birth if that helps, was 17th August, 1877

 

Mike

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The Fold 3 "concise" entry gives a Frederick Simpson with Dob 26th April 1877, and RAF service no 42120 - if this is all that Ancestry can come up with I don't see the point. Will Find My Past be different?

 

Simpson.JPG.1a1f4892d8abc0e4139e951dac69a204.JPG

 

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On transfer to the RAF he would have been at least a warrant officer (possibly 2/Lt) and his record would appear in AIR 76. However, since his service extended to 1942 it will not have been released into the public domain and must be applied for from MOD.

As a warrant officer RNAS he would not appear with a service number in AIR 79.

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The RAF muster roll for 1 April 1918 has an NRC Caley with the service number 13095. According to the same roll Frederick Simpson, service number 42120, is an Air Mechanic (3rd Class) with the trade of instrument repairer. Once again, hard to reconcile with somebody who was a warrant officer in the RNAS.

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/7000032862-simpson-f

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7 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

On transfer to the RAF he would have been at least a warrant officer (possibly 2/Lt) and his record would appear in AIR 76.

I wonder if this is the man we are looking for. Rank of 2/Lt, and working in the Technical branch, which would seem to be the right fit for someone who was a fitter and turner before joining the Royal Navy in 1909, and was initially an ERA before transferring to the RNAS.

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/7000207080-simpson-f

Edited by Tawhiri
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The Air Disposals dept have sent me his RAF Officers Record Of Service form 1406. It most definitely says his number was 13095. Whilst the information they provided is pretty good from June 1922, it has nothing from April 1918 to June 1922, and they tell me that information must be at the NA.

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14 hours ago, MikeW said:

It most definitely says his number was 13095.

This would be his service number as an RAF warrant officer/officer. Not to be confused with the service numbers of RAF other ranks listed under AIR 79 (which Simpson was not). The Royal Navy did not feel a need to number their warrant and commissioned officers, so Simpson's M.1162 Official Number applied only to his RN service as an ERA and CPO Mech (RNAS).

14 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

I wonder if this is the man we are looking for. Rank of 2/Lt, and working in the Technical branch, which would seem to be the right fit for someone who was a fitter and turner before joining the Royal Navy in 1909, and was initially an ERA before transferring to the RNAS.

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/7000207080-simpson-f

The lack of detail means we cannot be sure but this 'hit' from the 1918 RAF List is certainly a possibility for a WO2 (Engineer) RNAS transferred to the RAF.

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RNAS transfers to the RAF as airmen on 1 April 1918 were allocated a new number based on the number 200000 being added to their original RNAS number.

Frederick Simpson's RAF service number would therefore be 201162( if indeed 1162 was his RNAS number) which in the RAF service numbering structure was in the batch of numbers which were allocated to RNAS transfers for those who had enlisted in the RNAS in1914.When Simpson was commissioned, as an officer in the RAF,he would be allocated a new number and the record of this event  would appear in the LG edition at the time.

A similar assimilation was carried out with the transfer of RNAS squadrons to the RAF structure. 200 was added to the RNAS squadron number. An example would be RAF No 207 Squadron which under RNAS service was No 7 Squadron.

As regards ranks, when the RAF was created from 1 April 1918,rank designations and uniforms for the new service had not been effected by the new AM. Consequently transfers from the RFC and RNAS retained their previous ranks...an amalgam of ranks and also uniforms was evident until  a start was made on the transformation to the new service. Smuts proposed a commissioned rank structure for the RAF as a member of the Air Organisation Committee in late October 1917 with a combination of RFC and RNAS ranks but this was not implemented. Finally it was left to WSC  who postwar was the Minister for War and the Air (1919-1921) to implement the RAF commissioned rank structure again derived from RFC and RNAS rank designations which has survived to the present day.

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1 hour ago, Frank_East said:

RNAS transfers to the RAF as airmen on 1 April 1918 were allocated a new number based on the number 200000 being added to their original RNAS number.

Not quite. RNAS ratings with 'F' Official Numbertransferred to the RAF  were allocated a new number based on the number 200000 being added to their original RNAS number. Other RNAS ratings with other than 'F' numbers were transferred to RAF numbers in the series 313001 to 315178. The latter included numerous cooks and stewards but also RMLI/RMA aircraft mechanics.

1 hour ago, Frank_East said:

Frederick Simpson's RAF service number would therefore be 201162( if indeed 1162 was his RNAS number)

M.1162 was, indeed, his Official Number as an RN rating (including his RNAS time). But, because he transferred to the RAF as an RNAS  warrant officer (with no number) and not as a rating (his M.1162 number having lapsed on promotion on 17 Jan 1917), his RAF number could not have been 201162. He must, therefore, have been given an RAF warrant/commissioned officer's number on transfer.

Edited by horatio2
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1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

 

Not quite. RNAS ratings with 'F' Official Numbertransferred to the RAF  were allocated a new number based on the number 200000 being added to their original RNAS number. Other RNAS ratings with other than 'F' numbers were transferred to RAF numbers in the series 313001 to 315178. The latter included numerous cooks and stewards but also RMLI/RMA aircraft mechanics.

M.1162 was, indeed, his Official Number as an RN rating (including his RNAS time). But, because he transferred to the RAF as an RNAS  warrant officer (with no number) and not as a rating (his M.1162 number having lapsed on promotion on 17 Jan 1917), his RAF number could not have been 201162. He must, therefore, have been given an RAF warrant/commissioned officer's number on transfer.

Looking further at RAF service numbers in the batch 313001 to 316000.These were allocated to RAF transfers from the RNAS on 1 April 1918 up to the number 315179, (the rest of the numbers in the batch were never used) The important point here is the numbers were allocated to those who were RN personnel and had been attached to the RNAS...... not solely RNAS or RN men. To ascertain Simpson's service record it would be a case of name and number, rank would be an advantage but his number remains unknown apart from his batch. 

Further these service numbers were allocated to non commissioned airmen only which would include Warrant Officers....Warrant Officers were addressed by subordinates as "Sir" but would not be members of the Officers Mess, they would be the senior members of the Sergeants Mess. 

Additionally the reference to Simpson's rank being Lt in 1932 is at odds with the RAF commissioned officer structure. The structure had been established since WSC had it implemented shortly after the Great War and I would think that Simpson would be listed as holding the commissioned rank of Flight Lieutenant (F/L). Promotion was very slow in the interwar years, accelerated during the war but many of the promotions were non substantive.

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Simpson was Gazetted as FLt on 19th January 1932, the day after the effective date.

It seems fairly safe to accept that the F Simpson without a service number but given the rank of 2Lt, assigned to the Technical Branch on 1st April thrown up by the April 18 Air Force List is the correct chap. 

many of the promotions were non substantive   Nevertheless he was permitted to retain the rank of Squadron Leader when he retired in 1947!

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8 minutes ago, Frank_East said:

The important point here is the numbers were allocated to those who were RN personnel and had been attached to the RNAS...... not solely RNAS or RN men.

Again, not quite as described. It should be remembered that no ratings were recruited directly into the RNAS as 'F' men until August 1914. Before then the RNAS drew on naval ratings and RM other ranks and thousands of them remained with the RNAS until its conversion to RAF. So, although some were on brief (and not so brief) attachments, it is quite wrong to imply that they were not 'proper' RNAS just because they were never given 'F' numbers and appear in the 313000+ series. Their numbers included many dozens of highly qualified aircraft mechanics from AM2 to CPO Mechs. They represented the long-serving backbone of the RNAS from its earliest days. The same comment could be made about other RNAS support staff - cooks, stewards, signallers (quite a few RNVR), who were as 'pucka RNAS' as the WW1 'F' recruits.

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Thank you Steve, can you tell me how you got the RAF Museum Archive to come up with that result please? I type in Simpson, F. and I get a null return under casualty card - people 

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Try this link, rather than the RAF Museum Archive. I'm not sure what the difference between the two are, but the link that Steve posted can be accessed from the search page below. If you go with the general Search box and Simpson, he's the first entry on the second page of results, if you go with Search for Personnel and go with F for given name(s) and Simpson for surname, he's the second result that comes back.

https://www.casualtyforms.org/

Edited by Tawhiri
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1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

Thank you, Steve. This seems to confirm that was 2/Lt (Technical) RAF on transfer or shortly thereafter. So never a non-com RAF

The "RAF Casualty Form" being used is Army Form B103c referring to a 2/L which would does not agree with the military career of Fredrick Simpson although there is reference to RN and RNAS service on the form. Is there evidence that Simpson entered the RAF from the Army?  

One thing is clear, if Simpson entered the RAF in the batch already stated, he was a non commissioned airman. When commissioned he would have been allocated a RAF commissioned officer's service number which the LG records as 13095. When he retired from RAF service on 16 March 1947, his rank status was as a F/L, temporary Squadron Leader, Service Number 13095.As the LG records he left the service retaining the rank of Squadron Leader. His substantive rank was as a F/L. 

His service record should reveal the full extent of his military career. ...RAF Disclosures Section, Room 221b,Trenchard Hall, RAF Cranwell, Sleaford, Lincolnshire NG34 8HB

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Tawhiri - yes, I quickly discovered there are two distinct webpages for Casualty Cards from the RAF Museum - The Archive one which doesn't seem to work properly, and the site that Steve referenced that works perfectly.

 

Frank - The RAF Casualty Form provides much of his early RAF detail missing from the information which the RAF Disclosures Section has already provided me with. The RAF has retained his record because he remained with the RAF until 1947 (with a brief period of retirement but being retained on the active list just before WW2). Simpson started service in the Navy as an ERA, joined the RFC Naval Wing in 1913 as a CPO Mechanic, and was obviously with the RNAS proper from its formal inception on 1st July 1914, whilst a Warrant Officer he joined 9 Naval Squadron circa January 1918 as the squadron's Engineering Officer. He then transferred to the RAF on April Fools day 1918 remaining with the renamed 209 Squadron RAF, and all the evidence points to him transferring as a 2Lt (Technical). There should be an Air 76 file at the NA, but there isn't - it has to be held by the RAF. I am in discussion with the Disclosures section (who I assume are civilian clerical employees) and they keep telling me to go back to the NA. So just to sum up, his Service Record from the RAF Disclosures Section only covers his RAF career from his promotion to FLt in 1932.

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2 hours ago, MikeW said:

Thank you Steve, can you tell me how you got the RAF Museum Archive to come up with that result please? I type in Simpson, F. and I get a null return under casualty card - people 

Hi,

 

I only ever search using the surname as they are normally, but not always, filed in alphabetical order.

 

Steve

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