John George Mason

[ShaunC86]

Hi all, I'm currently researching my family tree and just after some help.  This is a photo of my great grandad who served in France during WW1.  Other than this photo and knowing he was shot in the arm I don't have any more information about his time there.

He was 15 when the war started so he lied about his age and possibly his name because I can't find any records on him.  I was wondering if anyone could tell me which uniform this is?  He lived in county Durham and his brother Joseph belonged to the Durham light infantry which I'm assuming is who my great grandad was also under.

Any info would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

 

 

 

 

[George Rayner]

Welcome to the forum and good luck!

I have found a Pension card with his mother 'Elizabeth Mason' associated to brother Joseph who died 1916 in action but also a card for William Pringle 10313 Northumberland Fusiliers, who died 1917 KiA. Is there a 'Pringle' link in the family tree worth following as an alias perhaps?

George

Edited 7 July , 2021 by George Rayner

[Michelle Young]

The man in the photo is badged to a fusilier regiment, definitely not to a Light infantry regiment. Fusiliers have a bursting grenade cap badge, and you can also see a grenade on his shoulder. The badge to me looks more like Royal Fusiliers, not NF as the NF flames are flatter and not pointed like in the photo. Light infantry have a bugle as part of their badge.

Michelle

[Michelle Young]

He also has a trade badge on his arm which looks like L in a wreath. There might be another letter but I can’t be sure.

@FROGSMILE amongst others might be able to give a better answer 

[Dragoon]

Thus chap is definitely Royal Fusiliers.

As mentioned, the cap badge flames are more pointed that that of the Northumberland Fusiliers.

Shoulder title is small grenade and below the letters RF.

And good spot, it is indeed an L in the wreath, he's trained on the  Lewis Gun.

Hope this helps

 

Chris

 

[Dragoon]

Hang fire on the trade badge, Lewis Gunner should be LG in wreath, not sure on this one.

Chris

 

[Dragoon]

L is normally a Royal Artillery badge meaning Gun Layer.

[FROGSMILE]

He’s RF as stated and wearing LG in wreath as a Lewis Gunner.  The badge is a type marketed for its adaptability, the letters and wreath were separate and held together by the backplate and cotter pins.  The badge’s twisted slightly so that with reflected light the G is given a distorted view, but it is still visible.

Edited 7 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[ShaunC86]

Thanks so much for all the information, I'm doing this for his daughter so she'll be happy to find this out.  He never spoke about his time in the war so she's always wondered.

Ive also noticed in the bottom right corner it says Ipswich and there's a word above it which looks like it starts with Boug but I can't make out the rest.  Does that mean anything to anyone?

The photo itself is on a postcard and there is a number in the top right corner on the back, is it possible this is his service number?

My knowledge on all this is next to zero so thanks again for all the info everyone 

 

Shaun

[Michelle Young]

Unfortunately, the number is probably the negative number not his regimental number.

[ShaunC86]

2 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Welcome to the forum and good luck!

I have found a Pension card with his mother 'Elizabeth Mason' associated to brother Joseph who died 1916 in action but also a card for William Pringle 10313 Northumberland Fusiliers, who died 1917 KiA. Is there a 'Pringle' link in the family tree worth following as an alias perhaps?

George

Hi George,

Ive not come across any Pringles yet but I'll have a look into it.  My great aunt has always said she thought he had two brothers that died in France but I've only ever been able to find out about Joseph (who died in Sep 16 and he's buried in France)

Shaun

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Michelle Young]

It could be Boughtons on the photo. They had photo studios in East Anglia.

[FROGSMILE]

Yes I think Michelle is (as so often) correct and it refers to the studio.  Before seeing the subsequent posts I’d been searching Boughton and found:

BOUGHTON, Walter, & Sons

106 London Road, Lowestoft 

KS1892

54 London Road, Lowestoft 

KS1896. KS1900, KS1904, KS1908

24 Buttermarket, Ipswich 

KS1900, TC1901

54 London Road North, Lowestoft 

IDT1906/7. KS1916, AS1916

See: https://www.early-photographers.org.uk/Suf A-B.html

Edited 7 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

It needs one of our super genealogists to try and find a medal index card and medal roll entry.  It’s not impossible that John George Mason changed regiment during his service, especially if he was wounded but then recovered and returned to the front as so many men did.  The more personal details that you can provide such as date of birth and home town the better, as the names of our subject are not uncommon.

Edited 7 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[ShaunC86]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It needs one of our super genealogists to try and find a medal index card and medal roll entry.  It’s not impossible that John George Mason changed regiment during his service, especially if he was wounded but then recovered and returned to the front as so many did.  The more personal details that you can provide such as date of birth and home town the better, as the names of our subject are not uncommon

Hope this helps, he's like a ghost when it comes to his service.  His daughter (Ruth) remembers his friends and family used to call him Jack.

[PRC]

May be a co-incidence but Long, Long Trail has:-

51st (Graduated) Battalion
Up to 26 October 1917, this was known as 259th Graduated Battalion and had no regimental affiliation. Before that it had been 106th Battalion of the Training Reserve and up to September 1916 had been the 30th (Reserve) Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers. A training unit based at Ipswich, it was part of 215th Brigade in 72nd Division. In March 1918 when 72nd Division was broken up it went to 204th Brigade of 68th Division at Newmarket. By June 1918 it had moved to Henham Park near Southwold.

52nd (Graduated) Battalion
Up to 27 October 1917, this was known as 265th Graduated Battalion and had no regimental affiliation. Before that it had been 107th Battalion of the Training Reserve and up to September 1916 had been the 31st (Reserve) Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers. A training unit based at Ipswich, it was part of 217th Brigade in 72nd Division. In March 1918 when 72nd Division was broken up it went to 204th Brigade of 68th Division at Newmarket. Absorbed into the 10th (Service) Battalion in Germany in period 1-4 April 1919.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-fusiliers-city-of-london-regiment/

(Highlights in Red are mine).

Might that suggest that he was actually called up on reaching 18 rather than liying about his age and joining up earlier. Drafts from those units could have ended up almost anywhere.

@ShaunC86

Can we assume your great-grandfather didn't marry during the time he was serving? (A marriage certificate would potentially give details under grooms occupation like rank and unit.)

As we don't know for sure what name he served under, and assuming he wasn't married, then potentially there may be some joy in tracking him down on the Absent Voters List entry for his parents address. The 1918 Representation of the People Act is nowadays remembered for giving some women the vote, but it's bigger impact at the time was extending the vote to all males over the age of 21, (not just property owners and householders), and those over 18 in the armed forces. Many of the new voters were living away from home, hence  the importance of the AVL's for 1918 & 1919, which frequently shows unit and service number. Of course it is dependant on him wanting to vote, and access to this source is patchy - see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Cheers,

Peter

[ShaunC86]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

May be a co-incidence but Long, Long Trail has:-

51st (Graduated) Battalion
Up to 26 October 1917, this was known as 259th Graduated Battalion and had no regimental affiliation. Before that it had been 106th Battalion of the Training Reserve and up to September 1916 had been the 30th (Reserve) Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers. A training unit based at Ipswich, it was part of 215th Brigade in 72nd Division. In March 1918 when 72nd Division was broken up it went to 204th Brigade of 68th Division at Newmarket. By June 1918 it had moved to Henham Park near Southwold.

52nd (Graduated) Battalion
Up to 27 October 1917, this was known as 265th Graduated Battalion and had no regimental affiliation. Before that it had been 107th Battalion of the Training Reserve and up to September 1916 had been the 31st (Reserve) Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers. A training unit based at Ipswich, it was part of 217th Brigade in 72nd Division. In March 1918 when 72nd Division was broken up it went to 204th Brigade of 68th Division at Newmarket. Absorbed into the 10th (Service) Battalion in Germany in period 1-4 April 1919.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-fusiliers-city-of-london-regiment/

(Highlights in Red are mine).

Might that suggest that he was actually called up on reaching 18 rather than liying about his age and joining up earlier. Drafts from those units could have ended up almost anywhere.

@ShaunC86

Can we assume your great-grandfather didn't marry during the time he was serving? (A marriage certificate would potentially give details under grooms occupation like rank and unit.)

As we don't know for sure what name he served under, and assuming he wasn't married, then potentially there may be some joy in tracking him down on the Absent Voters List entry for his parents address. The 1918 Representation of the People Act is nowadays remembered for giving some women the vote, but it's bigger impact at the time was extending the vote to all males over the age of 21, (not just property owners and householders), and those over 18 in the armed forces. Many of the new voters were living away from home, hence  the importance of the AVL's for 1918 & 1919, which frequently shows unit and service number. Of course it is dependant on him wanting to vote, and access to this source is patchy - see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Cheers,

Peter

Thanks for that Peter, it's a possibility he could have signed up late on.  His daughter always thought he lied about his age but she can't say that for definite.  He married in March 1920 but his occupation on the certificate was a coal miner.  I'll have a look through the info you've provided.

[Michelle Young]

There are 8 John Masons on Ancestry Medal Index Cards with Royal Fusiliers. 

[ss002d6252]

2 MIC's for a John George Mason

#61703 Bedfordshire's - has a contact address of Hackney.

#49388 Northamptonshire's - has a contact address of Clapton Park.

 

I think we can rule these two out.

Craig

[PRC]

13 minutes ago, ShaunC86 said:

but his occupation on the certificate was a coal miner

The 1911 Census of England & Wales has a 12 year old John George Mason, born Birtley, recorded living at 12b Street, Birtley, (or at least that is how the address is shown on the document and transcripts I'm looking at !). This was the household of his parents William Thomas, (53, Coal Miner Hewer) and Elizabeth, (48). The couple have been married 30 years and have had 17 children, of which sadly only 9 were then still alive. Of the children still living with them, the only older male is the 17 year older Joseph, a Driver in a Coal Mine.

Would seem likely that when John finished his schooling at 14 he too would have gone to work at the colliery, given his occupation on the 1920 marriage certificate. While the armed forces were accepting colliery workers in 1914, as the increasingly industrial nature of warfare became more obvious, and so much of that industry was based on coal power, such workers began to be turned away in 1915. Men who were already serving were actually released back to the mines, (although the armed forces reserved the right to recall them). With the introduction of conscription in 1916 colliery workers were amongst the first groups to be exempted.

We have had a number of threads in the past about the sudden reversal of that decision in the aftermath of the huge losses suffered by the British Army during the German Spring Offensive of 1918 - after a deal was done with the unions, a number of young unmarried colliers were conscripted. Of course by the time they were trained the arrival of US troops made using the young miners as cannon fodder seem a bit of an own goal and many were quietly released back to their own jobs. A number of those who didn't ended up serving in Ireland. As it wasn't a Theatre of War they didn't qualify for service medals - but they could be shot at.

Which isn't to say that John didn't serve in a Theatre of War and wasn't wounded - it's just to provide a yardstick to measure his story against. Given the millions who served there are always going to be exceptions.

Cheers,

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

I think there’s a good chance that the photo shows our subject in one of the two Royal Fusiliers Reserve Battalions that you mentioned Peter.  Generally the Graduated Battalions had the slightly older soldiers (in the last stage before being old enough to deploy) and, as such, they received more advanced infantry training including Lewis Gun, bombing (hand grenade tactics such as trench clearing and ‘posting’ (inserting grenades through apertures from close quarters)), and section and platoon manoeuvre.  Ergo his appearance chimes with that sort of unit and, as he has no wound stripe (family anecdote refers), it suggests a photo taken pre deployment to France and Flanders.  Another aspect that intrigues me is the solitary slip on cloth flash on his right shoulder strap.  These are a common Army practice in training establishments and usually indicate a company, or at a brigade sized school a battalion, by utilising different colours.  Another occasional usage is for an orderly or duty man given temporary responsibility.  This also adds to the circumstantial evidence suggesting a training unit.

Edited 7 July , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

44 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

There are 8 John Masons on Ancestry Medal Index Cards with Royal Fusiliers. 

...... I came up with 11 with a stated RF connection but ruled 5 out as they had a different second initial.  The remaining 6 x John Masons with a direct RF connection were: GS/93414, 103292, 24733, 281757, G/0274 and GS/11726 (last one is a Sgt) ..... but there are another 24 x John Masons with a "London Regiment" title that may mask a Royal Fusiliers (London Regiment) connection ?

Edited 7 July , 2021 by TullochArd

[PRC]

The Training Reserve Battalions I referred to above would have fallen into the Eastern Command Area. It's not set in stone, but general drafts from such Training Battalions would have tended to go Regiments based in the same command.

Looking for a Medal Index card for a John G. Mason in the National Archive catalogue I can see 11 matches - a mix of Durham Light Infantry men, Northumberland Fusiliers, Royal Engineers - and a Rifle Brigade man. I focused on the latter as it was the one most likely to have come under Eastern Command.

I don't subscribe to Ancestry, but the public search of the Victory Medal and British War Medal Roll shows him to be a John George Mason, 45462.

It took a bit of searching of nearby service numbers, but Private 45452 James Russell MacDonald, Rifle Brigade does have some surviving service records. Another 1899 born man, he was transferred into the 52nd (Graduated Battalion), Royal Fusiliers on the 1st November 1917. He embarked at Southampton as part of General Draft No.67 on the 28th March 1918 and landed at Le Havre the next day. He was transferred to the Rifle Brigade but actually posted to the 5th Battalion, London Regiment, London Rifle Brigade - there is a complicated relationship between the two regiments that I'm hoping someone can simplify for you if it becomes more relevant. He received a shot wound to the jaw at the end of August 1918, was medically repatriated to the UK and subsequently discharged as no longer physically fit.

(Image courtesy FindMyPast)

Thats still not to say the Rifle Brigade man is the right match or was in the same draft. I've tried looking for a "Mason 45462" and a "Mason Birtley" in the 1918 Casualty Lists using a computer search but drew a blank. However those sources are both inaccurate and also notoriously badly transcribed - I couldn't find MacDonald either.

So I'll put my thinking cap on, but hopefully others can be more inspired.

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 7 July , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[ss002d6252]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

The 1911 Census of England & Wales has a 12 year old John George Mason, born Birtley, recorded living at 12b Street, Birtley, (or at least that is how the address is shown on the document and transcripts I'm looking at !).

They seem to have been rows of miners terraces as there was also an 'A' Street - I know Birtley (monster in law lives there) but as yet I can't identify where the 2 street were.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

The Training Reserve Battalions I referred to above would have fallen into the Eastern Command Area. It's not set in stone, but general drafts from such Training Battalions would have tended to go Regiments based in the same command.

Looking for a Medal Index card for a John G. Mason in the National Archive catalogue I can see 11 matches - a mix of Durham Light Infantry men, Northumberland Fusiliers, Royal Engineers - and a Rifle Brigade man. I focused on the latter as it was the one most likely to have come under Eastern Command.

I don't subscribe to Ancestry, but the public search of the Victory Medal and British War Medal Roll shows him to be a John George Mason, 45462.

It took a bit of searching of nearby service numbers, but Private 45452 James Russell MacDonald, Rifle Brigade does have some surviving service records. Another 1899 born man, he was transferred into the 52nd (Graduated Battalion), Royal Fusiliers on the 1st November 1917. He embarked at Southampton as part of General Draft No.67 on the 28th March 1918 and landed at Le Havre the next day. He was transferred to the Rifle Brigade but actually posted to the 5th Battalion, London Regiment, London Rifle Brigade - there is a complicated relationship between the two regiments that I'm hoping someone can simplify for you if it becomes more relevant. He received a shot wound to the jaw at the end of August 1918, was medically repatriated to the UK and subsequently discharged as no longer physically fit.

(Image courtesy FindMyPast)

Thats still not to say the Rifle Brigade man is the right match or was in the same draft. I've tried looking for a "Mason 45462" and a "Mason Birtley" in the 1918 Casualty Lists using a computer search but drew a blank. However those sources are both inaccurate and also notoriously badly transcribed - I couldn't find MacDonald either.

So I'll but my thinking cap on, but hopefully others can be more inspired.

Cheers,

Peter

You might have hit spot on.

John George Mason was living in Chester le Street when he was pensioned in 1919 - right next door to Birtley. A second address on the card shows 9 New Street, Birtley,

https://www.fold3.com/image/643555371?terms=mason,45462

 

https://www.fold3.com/image/702776229?terms=mason,45462

Craig