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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

John George Mason


ShaunC86

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7 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

John George Mason was living in Chester le Street when he was pensioned in 1919 - right next door to Birtley. A second address on the card shows 9 New Street, Birtley,

You can't beat a good bit of local knowledge :) Can I be cheeky and ask if you have access to the VM & BWM Service Medal Roll to establish what unit(s) he served with overseas?

And @ShaunC86 - could you tell us what address did he give as his residence prior to marriage on the 1920 wedding certificate.

Cheers
Peter

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He's also a good example of a 'Dead' claim where it was became it was closed by the MoP rather than the man dying.

Craig

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Just now, PRC said:

You can't beat a good bit of local knowledge :) Can I be cheeky and ask if you have access to the VM & BWM Service Medal Roll to establish what unit(s) he served with overseas?

And @ShaunC86 - could you tell us what address did he give as his residence prior to marriage on the 1920 wedding certificate.

Cheers
Peter

I used to live in Birtley for a little while and now not too far away.

Ask and you shall get

BWM and VM (returned for adjustment as incorrectly stamped)

Attached to 1/5 London Regiment from the Rifle Brigade.

Craig

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9 minutes ago, PRC said:

You can't beat a good bit of local knowledge :) Can I be cheeky and ask if you have access to the VM & BWM Service Medal Roll to establish what unit(s) he served with overseas?

And @ShaunC86 - could you tell us what address did he give as his residence prior to marriage on the 1920 wedding certificate.

Cheers
Peter

He lived at 12 Laburnum Street, birtley which is now called new town.  The houses are no longer there and I believe they were behind AEI cables which was a factory in birtley.

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21 minutes ago, ShaunC86 said:

He lived at 12 Laburnum Street, birtley which is now called new town.  The houses are no longer there and I believe they were behind AEI cables which was a factory in birtley.

Laburnum Street was right between Komatsu and AEI - under the council (if it's still there) gym.

 

https://maps.durham.gov.uk/OLBasic2/Index.aspx?appid=72image.png

Right next to the Colliery. I expect A and B streets were close by as well.


Craig

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These seem likely to be the cap badges that he probably wore overseas then.

It’s interesting that despite coming from Birtley the London connection remained consistent throughout his service given that the RF were the city of London regiment, the Rifle Brigade recruited a lot from London even in peacetime, and of course the 5th London’s LRB were also deeply connected with the metropolis.

 It seems possible to me (likely even) that he started with the 3rd line battalions of the 1st to 4th London Regiment (TF), who were affiliated with, and wore the cap badge of the Royal Fusiliers.  All four of these training and TF reserve battalions were based around Bury St Edmunds and then Ipswich throughout 1915, before in June 1916, becoming 2nd line battalions of the same unit, when the original 2nd line was absorbed by its respective 1st line in France after heavy losses.  From there it would have been but a short step from a London Regiment affiliated Infantry Base Depot (IBD) in France to first the Rifle Brigade (that in 1916 took administrative responsibility for a large part of the London Regiment) to then be posted in a draft of reinforcements to the 2/5th London’s, whose unit title remained unchanged despite the new management by the corps of the Rifle Brigade.  Alternatively he might have transferred over to the RB/LRB whilst still in Britain (Ipswich), probably during the reorganisation of 1916.

From the LLT:

2/5th (City of London) Battalion (London Rifle Brigade)
Formed in London in September 1914. By December 1914, had moved to Haywards Heath and placed under orders of 2/1st London Brigade in 2/1st London Division.
Moved to Norwich in May 1915 and formation retitled as 174th Brigade in 58th (2/1st London) Division. Moved on to Ipswich next month and then to Sutton Veny in July 1916.
25 January 1917 : landed at Le Havre.
6 February 1918 : disbanded at Moreuil.

9FCECA6F-3B95-4221-A747-58C3607AE48E.jpeg

2E5DC1E6-37AF-485A-94D5-9D586EEF1524.jpeg

DCF1F74C-0B5C-427E-B0A9-9392E9C4F6E1.jpeg

 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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2 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

You might have hit spot on.

John George Mason was living in Chester le Street when he was pensioned in 1919 - right next door to Birtley. A second address on the card shows 9 New Street, Birtley,

image.png
https://www.fold3.com/image/643555371?terms=mason,45462

 

image.png

https://www.fold3.com/image/702776229?terms=mason,45462


Craig

 

I'm working at the moment so I'm going to go through all these posts properly later this evening.  Thanks everyone for all of this information, it's very kind.

I just noticed that foundry lane was one of the addresses which is where his wife lived before they were married (no 9).  I have to create an account to see the full document but I'll do that later.

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1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

Attached to 1/5 London Regiment from the Rifle Brigade.

Thanks Craig - so looks likely his path overlapped with James MacDonald in going from the 52nd (Graduated) Battalion Royal Fusiliers to the 1/3rd Battalion London Regiment on the 28th March 1918, going out to France as part of Draft 67 the same day, then being transferred to the Rifle Brigade to serve with the 1/5th Battalion, London Rifle Brigade on the 29th on arrival in France, joining up with his new unit in the field on the 3rd April 1918. It would seem almost certain that James MacDonald and John Mason received their new Rifle Brigade numbers at the same time. Any further overlap between the two men outside this 7 day period becomes a lot more subjective.

1 hour ago, ShaunC86 said:

He lived at 12 Laburnum Street, birtley which is now called new town.

Sugar - I was hoping that would give us the proverbial smoking gun. There are an additional 4 John Mason's associated with Birtley on the 1911 Census.

Another John George - but aged 2, so can be discounted.
A John William, aged 10, who I believe can also be discounted.
A John, aged 35 and a married Miner - Hewer, born Wooley Colliery and head of the household at 10 Old South Terrace. At the approx. year of his birth, c1875, Wooley fell with the Durham Civil Registration District. While there are several John Mason registered in that District between 1874-78, there are no John G's.
A John, aged 49 and a married Coal Miner (Hewer), born Hunwick and head of the household at 51 "B" Street, Newtown, Birtley. Probably can be discounted on age, but struggling to find him and his parents before the 1881 Census, so difficult to be sure about birthplace.

Not completely nailed and you can seldom entirely eliminate co-incidence. And of course another John George Mason could have become subsequently associated with the area, although it must be one h*ll of a co-incidence that both men had a connection with Ipswich during their army career.

BTW - I may be mis-reading the card extract that Craig posted, but as well as Rifle Brigade, T.R.B. and R.Fus, does it not also look like "Cavalry"?
James MacDonald was initially called up into the Army Service Corps before being combed out into the Infantry even though he passed his trade test as a Lorry Driver. I wonder if something similar happened to John and the Cavalry.

Cheers,
Peter

 

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I have found these on ancestry which could be for him?  Where it states residence it is Butley which could just be a spelling error.  I

Service number matches the one on the pension record posted earlier 

 

 

Screenshot_20210707-150038.jpg.0fe390de262b5f002b11b1233f245d73.jpg

Screenshot_20210707-150013.jpg

Screenshot_20210707-150033.jpg

Screenshot_20210707-150047.jpg

Screenshot_20210707-150203__01.jpg

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That’s pretty much the sequence I imagined Peter, but much, much later than I’d anticipated, in 1918, and joining a draft just a week after the start of the German Spring Offensive.  

It’s often forgotten that the RB and KRRC were between them running the administration of most of the London Regiment since 1916 (less those units without a ‘Rifles’ appellation).

 I wonder if he was one of those picked up from the coal industry in extremis that you mentioned.

The sequence on the pension card that Craig uncovered suggests he was perhaps badged RF before joining the unaligned Training Reserve Battalion (‘TRB’) or have I got that the other way around?

Edited by FROGSMILE
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12 minutes ago, ShaunC86 said:

I have found these on ancestry which could be for him? 

Yes those are the images and related transcripts that have been referred to. Your second image is the Medal Index Card and the last one is the related Victory Medal and British War Medal Service Medal Roll. (The administrative reference quoted on the MIC refers to this page of the Roll - the MiC was a way for the record clerks at the relevant records office to keep track of the medal documentation and related correspondence).

As he didn't enter a Theatre of War until on or after the 1st January 1916, the only service medals he qualifies for are the Victory Medal and British War Medal. Men who were were medically evacuated back to the UK would be posted on to the strength of the Depot for administration, pay and disciplinary purposes while they were being treated, which may explain the Depot reference.

Craig has posted extracts from the pension ledger cards that are referred to in your screenshots from Ancestry. The forum has a long-running thread for who can find the worse transcription on Ancestry - I'm afraid Butley for Birtley wouldn't even make the top 1,000:)

War Diaries for units serving in France & Flanders can currently be downloaded for free from the National Archive. You do need to sign in with an account, but even that can be set up as part of your first order. Just click on "sign in" and follow the instructions - no financial details required. It will be unlikely to mention him by name but will give you a feel for where they were and what they were up to. You may find a reference to a draft turning up on the 3rd April 1918.

War diaries for the 1/5th Battalion available for the period after his arrival are:
April 1918 - August 1918: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14056038
September 1918 - October 1918: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14056039
November 1918 - May 1919: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14084910

Cheers
Peter

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1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

The sequence on the pension card that Craig uncovered suggests he was perhaps badged RF before joining the unaligned Training Reserve Battalion (‘TRB’) or have I got that the other way around?

I haven't posted both sides of the B.103 for James Russell MacDonald as I thought the image I posted was confusing enough :)

In essence in goes A.S.C. >> Training Reserve Battalion >> 265th Infantry Battalion >> 52nd (Graduated) Battalion, Royal Fusiliers >> 1/3rd Battalion London Regiment >> Rifle Brigade >> 1/5th Battalion London Regiment.

Lacking a surviving service record for John Mason my best informed guess for his unit progression is
Cavalry >> Training Reserve Battalion >> 52nd (Graduated) Battalion, Royal Fusiliers >> 1/3rd Battalion London Regiment >> Rifle Brigade >> 1/5th Battalion London Regiment >> Rifle Brigade Depot.

1/3rd Battalion London Regiment and Rifle Brigade are admin. I've limited access to FindMyPast so had to restrict what I looked at, but couldn't see any obvious service numbers for the earlier units served with by James MacDonald - and to be honest, as they are very unlikely to turn up on a MiC other than for a Home Service only man who received the Silver War Badge I suspect they wouldn't help much anyway.

Expanding the search to earlier than 45452 and above 45462 may turn other other surviving service records that might firm up the order of units served with and how far their paths were aligned - did they all come together from the 265th Infantry Battalion for example.

Cheers,

Peter

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14 minutes ago, PRC said:

I haven't posted both sides of the B.103 for James Russell MacDonald as I thought the image I posted was confusing enough :)

In essence in goes A.S.C. >> Training Reserve Battalion >> 265th Infantry Battalion >> 52nd (Graduated) Battalion, Royal Fusiliers >> 1/3rd Battalion London Regiment >> Rifle Brigade >> 1/5th Battalion London Regiment.

Lacking a surviving service record for John Mason my best informed guess for his unit progression is
Cavalry >> Training Reserve Battalion >> 52nd (Graduated) Battalion, Royal Fusiliers >> 1/3rd Battalion London Regiment >> Rifle Brigade >> 1/5th Battalion London Regiment >> Rifle Brigade Depot.

1/3rd Battalion London Regiment and Rifle Brigade are admin. I've limited access to FindMyPast so had to restrict what I looked at, but couldn't see any obvious service numbers for the earlier units served with by James MacDonald - and to be honest, as they are very unlikely to turn up on a MiC other than for a Home Service only man who received the Silver War Badge I suspect they wouldn't help much anyway.

Expanding the search to earlier than 45452 and above 45462 may turn other other surviving service records that might firm up the order of units served with and how far their paths were aligned - did they all come together from the 265th Infantry Battalion for example.

Cheers,

Peter

Thank you Peter.  I always think that laying out the chronology as best as can be assessed, even if with some degree of informed guesswork, is immensely helpful in understanding a soldier’s service, especially for an OP who might have very limited knowledge of how the Army was organised and operated.  What you’ve outlined certainly paints a vivid picture for me.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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I think sometimes you have to take the order of earlier service on the cards as being only a guide rather than being the absolute - in some cases other information on the card can assist but not in this case.

I would agree that Peter's chronology looks to be the best fit.

Craig

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Absent voters list for Spring 1919: John George Mason of 12 Laburnum St. 45462, L.R.R.

There is a photo of his brother Joseph (1/8th DLI) in the local paper if you're interested, and Laburnum St. (B Street) Newtown was indeed next to where AEI Cables is located.

mason j.jpg

Mason jos.jpg

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On 20/07/2021 at 20:06, Jean60 said:

Absent voters list for Spring 1919: John George Mason of 12 Laburnum St. 45462, L.R.R.

There is a photo of his brother Joseph (1/8th DLI) in the local paper if you're interested, and Laburnum St. (B Street) Newtown was indeed next to where AEI Cables is located.

mason j.jpg

Mason jos.jpg

Wow, thanks a lot for sharing this.  How did you find it?  Apologies for the late reply, the email notification got lost in the rest of my junk emails so only just gone through them.

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I have an interest in Birtley. I regularly use the Chester-le-Street Chronicle for researching Birtley soldiers from WW1, available at Gateshead library but also on DVD 1913 to 1919 from the Chester-le-Street Heritage Group. Current project is collecting photos of the men on Birtley cenotaph, only another 73 to go!

 

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36 minutes ago, Jean60 said:

I have an interest in Birtley. I regularly use the Chester-le-Street Chronicle for researching Birtley soldiers from WW1, available at Gateshead library but also on DVD 1913 to 1919 from the Chester-le-Street Heritage Group. Current project is collecting photos of the men on Birtley cenotaph, only another 73 to go!

 

Have you looked at the Illustrated Chronicle and the Northern Echo databases ?

Craig

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Thanks for that, yes the Illustrated Chronicle has been quite helpful in the search although often the same photos appear in both publications: The Chester-le-Street Chronicle and the Illustrated Chronicle.

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