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Remembered Today:

Great Grandfather WW1


Sartene

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7 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Sadly little official paperwork in those days. And of course he could have worked his passage as crew. By the sounds of things there is nothing definate about him actually leaving Australia at any point - none of the children were really old enough to have known them, and unless he continued to write to the family, being told by the mother that he had left to fight in the war and had died would have probably seemed a very plausible explanation for his absense.

 

 

At the moment it looks like Service number, (not discharge number) was 33526, and he appears to be part of a group already in South Africa that signed up for 6 months, starting in November 1901, not ending in November 1901. Alternatively a lot of transcribers on a number of websites have got things very wrong :)

 

What was niggling me is at the time of the Boer War, apart from a few corps like the Artillery, Engineers and Medical, most British Army units only used four digit service numbers. When they got to 9999 they went back to 1. By the sounds of things the Scottish Horse had their own system for everyhting, so I should have realised they might have used a five digit numbering system !

 

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Peter, Well you got me thinking with that? as the only date I could see was November, 1901. Which didn't make a lot of sense because the paper says reason for discharge "Termination of War" which I know didn't end then. 

 

However, after your prompting I went back to the Discharge Papers and magnified it a couple of hundred times and sure enough there was the Discharge date of 9th of July, 1902. So thanks for that, another piece of valuable information. Cheers. PS. Under magnification it says, "Character Exemplary", so I was pleased about that, as well.

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I think the top row probably starts with a clerical file reference: 68/ Australian Forces/1388 of 12th August 1907 enlistments [remainder indecipherable].

 

The second row: “Also on clasp roll of 1st Scottish Horse”.

 

Third row: 1901 enlistments, issued 30th August 1907, to Officer in charge Records, [at] Perth.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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35 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Third row: 1901 enlistments, issued 30th August 1907, to Officer in charge Records, [at] Perth.

 Or could it possibly be 01 clasp issued -30th August 1907 ??? Officer Commanding Records, Perth - I'm seeing "cl" rather than "en" and "o/c" rather than "i/c"

(But then I am well overdue a sight test :)

Not sure of the word \ abbreviation \ acronym after the date.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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27 minutes ago, PRC said:

 Or could it possibly be 01 clasp issued -30th August 1907 ??? Officer Commanding Records, Perth - I'm seeing "cl" rather than "en" and "o/c" rather than "i/c"

I would concur that it relates to the issue of the (South Africa 19)01 clasp on 30/8/07 to Officer in charge records Perth.

 

However, having had a look at the QSA Roll for the 2nd Scottish Horse I don't believe that any of that text is relevant to Horace and belongs to the entry above his (37484 J. Brand).  The ditto marks on Horace's entry appear to have been on the roll initially, before that additional text was added to J. Brand, and relates to the application for the QSA already being submitted on the 2nd Scottish Horse's Roll.

 

Steve

Edited by SteveE
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1 hour ago, PRC said:

 Or could it possibly be 01 clasp issued -30th August 1907 ??? Officer Commanding Records, Perth - I'm seeing "cl" rather than "en" and "o/c" rather than "i/c"

(But then I am well overdue a sight test :)

Not sure of the word \ abbreviation \ acronym after the date.

 

Cheers,

Peter


I’m not positive of the el / cl Peter, but if you compare it with a similar annotation in the first row the style is identical except that it appears with an additional letter as els (both els and the el are what I interpreted as abbreviated enlistment(s).  I might well have misread it but that was my take in the overall context of what the annotations seem to be about.

 

I feel more strongly about the O i/c though, as that’s a long standing and enduring British military abbreviation.  It wouldn’t be following convention to write O o/c (Officer officer/commanding, but Officer in/charge was and still is fairly universal for Records Offices.  Such men often sign off: O i/c Records.  In the end it’s all just interpretation though and I recognise that.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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50 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m not positive of the el / cl Peter, but if you compare it with a similar annotation in the first row the style is identical except that it appears with an additional letter as els (both els and the el are what I interpreted as abbreviated enlistment(s).  I might well have misread it but that was my take in the overall context of what the annotations seem to be about.

With all due respect it's 'cl' or 'cls' and relates directly to the issue of 'clasps' to the Queen's South Africa Medal and has nothing to do with enlistment.  In the posted extract it's "01 cl. iss. 30/8/07" so South Africa 1901 clasp issued 30/8/07 or "cls Joh, Dia H" so clasps Johannesburg & Diamond Hill.  37484 J. Brand's clasp entitlement is pretty messy on the various rolls as he had service with more than one unit and it looks like it took some time to sort it all out...

 

All of which is superfluous however as it doesn't relate to Horace, the subject of this thread :).

 

Steve

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59 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m not positive of the el / cl Peter, but if you compare it with a similar annotation in the first row the style is identical except that it appears with an additional letter as els (both els and the el are what I interpreted as abbreviated enlistment(s).

 

I'm not positive either, but a reference to clasp award in 1907 would seem more relevant to the Perths record officer than a notification of enlistments in 1901. (More than happy to concede the point about i/c regardless of what the letter shaping is like). The two entries are in different hands and so the authors may have had different takes on the appropriateness of various abbreviation

 

As @SteveE has pointed out, if the text actually relates to the medal roll entry for 37484 J. Brand, then doesn't assist us in the search for Horace Brown.

 

When I first looked at it, my thoughts were was it normal for that clasp to be issued in 1907, or was it a scenario too familiar from the Great War and the clasp couldn't be issued as no address was known, or it had been returned from an address that he was no longer living at. The referral to the Perth records office might therefore have been for a permission to destroy or to advise the need for an updated address. Hence I was looking for what the mystery word might be. But if it all relates to J. Brand then would just be an academic exercise to try and work it out.

 

The first thing I do take from it is that the Scottish Horse records were at Perth. If they still exist they might contain addresses. If his don't but others from the period do, then potentially may have been rolled into WW1 era service records and then subsequently lost in the fire - a sort of indication that he did serve in the Great War with the British Army.

 

There is apparently a Scottish Horse Regimental Museum.

https://www.historicdunkeld.org.uk/scottish-horse/

https://canmore.org.uk/site/225914/dunkeld-high-street-scottish-horse-museum

 

I've no idea of what records they hold but could potentially be another avenue for @Sartene to try. Perhaps a forum member like @rolt968 has some knowledge of them or can advise a member who does. I'm also not sure of the information quoted on the museum webpage, but if correct the 2 units in the Boer War were split, with one made up of Scotsmen plus local South Africans of Scots descent, and the other of Scotsmen plus Australians of Scottish descent.

The natural assumption based on that order of priority, (to be confirmed), is that the 1st Battalion was South African flavoured and the 2nd Battalion Australian.

 

The second is that it appears J. Brand served with another unit before ending up with the Scottish Horse which adds to the impression from the 10 men looked at earlier in the thread that they may have enlisted locally after their original units returned home or had been disbanded.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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You might well be right Peter, I erred on the side of e rather than c because the few other c in the annotations don’t have the loop back, but as you say there are different hands at play.  There’s no doubt about the i/c though, the convention was and remains very consistent and tied up with all forms of records office within the WD.  I leave you and the other expert genealogical detectives to pursue the other more important matters.

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3 hours ago, PRC said:

There is apparently a Scottish Horse Regimental Museum.

https://www.historicdunkeld.org.uk/scottish-horse/

https://canmore.org.uk/site/225914/dunkeld-high-street-scottish-horse-museum

 

I've no idea of what records they hold but could potentially be another avenue for @Sartene to try. Perhaps a forum member like @rolt968 has some knowledge of them or can advise a member who does. I'm also not sure of the information quoted on the museum webpage, but if correct the 2 units in the Boer War were split, with one made up of Scotsmen plus local South Africans of Scots descent, and the other of Scotsmen plus Australians of Scottish descent.

The natural assumption based on that order of priority, (to be confirmed), is that the 1st Battalion was South African flavoured and the 2nd Battalion Australian.

 

The second is that it appears J. Brand served with another unit before ending up with the Scottish Horse which adds to the impression from the 10 men looked at earlier in the thread that they may have enlisted locally after their original units returned home or had been disbanded.

 

Cheers,

Peter

I believe that they do have enlistment registers, but I don't know how far back they go. (I have been meaning to visit their archives but had put it off until I had all the information about all the Scottish Horse men I am researching as Dunkeld is a bit of a trek for me and it has been ruled out in the last eighteen months).@Skipmanor @Derek Black may know more.

RM

Edited by rolt968
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Yes they have enlistment registers, but am not sure how far they go back, quite a way I think. I only scratched the surface and looked at men I was researching but have attached a few images of examples. I would give them a phone if I was you, they are extremely helpful. I'm not sure how often they are open now but keep trying, it may be that they could photograph and email the records you require for a donation.

 

Mike

Scottish Horse 1.JPG

Scottish Horse 2.JPG

Scottish horse 3.JPG

Scottish horse 4.JPG

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SCOTTISH HORSE MUSEUM AT DUNKELD

 

I have visited this museum twice over the past few years. The first time it was located up a spiral stair in the actual cathedral tower. More recently it was located in a newly refurbish building next to the cathedral. Col David Arbuthnot helped me with my research and the WW1 results were brilliant. I really encourage you to contact them. If you have difficulties there is also an archive nearby at Blair Atholl Castle, the home of the Scottish Horse. The Duke of Atholl established and led the Scottish Horse.

 

https://www.historicdunkeld.org.uk/scottish-horse/

email: archives@historicdunkeld.org.uk

 

https://blair-castle.co.uk/scottish-highland-castle/the-castle/castle-estate-archives/

email: archive@blair-castle.co.uk

 

INW

 

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