Great Grandfather WW1

[Sartene]

Hi All

 

I am trying to track down my G Grandfather who I believe fought in WW1. According to family information he did not enlist in Australia but enlisted overseas, which makes it difficult. His name was Horace Brown, born Patrick Plains NSW, 1880. His father was Henry Xavier Browne and his mother was Isabella Ann Browne. We have record of him in the Boar War serving with the 2nd Scottish Horse. He signed on in Durban and was discharged in Johannesburg in November 1901.

 

If anyone could point me in the right direction it would be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers, Sartene

Edited 22 June , 2021 by Sartene

[PRC]

Hi @Sartene and welcome to the forum.

 

Sorry to start off with a few questions, but unfortunately the vast majority of British Army other ranks service records were destroyed in WW2 when German bombs hit the London warehouse where they were being stored. Particulalrly with a common surname like Brown this can make finding out whether a man served into something of a detective story.

So in order to narrow down the places to try searching:-

 

Does family legend say which combatant nation he actually served with?

And without wishing to pry, as he was a great grandfather, there must also have been a great grandmother. By the outbreak of war he would have been aged 34, so I assume if he wasn't already married, it most likely happened during the war. And for you to be here the couple must have had at least one child. Have you been able to pin down anything about his whereabouts from the civil records both immediately before, during and after the Great War period from such sources as censuses, birth, marriage, (even death - wife, child), passenger lists and newspapers.

What about your great grandmother - does her whereabout shine any light on where your great grandfather might have joined up.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Sartene]

Hi Peter

 

Thankyou for your assistance much appreciated.

 

Yes, the family maintain that he fought with the British as he had done in the Boar War.

 

With reference to his marriage, yes he did get married to in Queensland Australia in 1910 and they had two children one of whom was my Grandfather.

 

He then left sometime after 1913, (that is the last time I can place him in Queensland by the 1913 census). He never returned from WW1 and my Great Grandmother remarried some years later and had 4 children with her next husband. I have found her grave and that substanciates her remarriage and children, which includes a notation of her first two children to Horace and then her 4 subsequent children to her next husband. My grandfather (born 1911) did spend the last few years of his childhood with his new family before he left home himself, but always stayed in touch with his mother and they are buried in the same cemetery.

 

So, I have my grandfathers birth certificate and his parents marriage certificate and I can pretty much locate his father, Horace, until 1913 and I have his regimental number in the Boar War and where he signed on and off and when, in South Africa and that he served with the 2nd Scottish Horse. but that's it.

 

I am kind of stuck to go any further at the moment hence the post.

 

Cheers,  and any assistance would be appreciated,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johnboy]

Boer War or Boar War?

[Sartene]

Hi Johnboy

 

Sorry,  Boer War.

[johnboy]

e then left sometime after 1913, (that is the last time I can place him in Queensland by the 1913 census). He never returned from WW1 

So are you saying he died in the war?

[Sartene]

Hi Johnboy

 

Well I don't really know? He never came back to his wife and children, so she remarried and had an entirely different life.

 

So, he either died or went somewhere else after the war?

 

At the moment, that is what we are trying to find out.

 

As PRC said, it is turning into some what of a detective  story, he seems to have vanished.

 

Obviously something must have happened, we're just not sure what.

 

Cheers

 

 

[alf mcm]

  This doesn't help your query, but Horace is on this Boer War Medal Roll, with 2 Scottish Horse. His number is 33526.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1686/images/31794_221503-00546?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=32dbc8d76997c37d9dd33946b40702a2&usePUB=true&_phsrc=pEt4945&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1550794

 

Regards,

Alf McM

[alf mcm]

Your great grandfather's full name appears to be Horace Noorcroft Browne according to his Australian birth record.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=ANZ%2FBMD%2FNSW%2FB%2F0001543727

 

Perhaps he enlisted as Horace Browne?

 

Regards,

Alf McM

[Michelle Young]

There are 6 Horace Brownes in the Medal Index Cards, none to Horace N Browne. 

[TullochArd]

2 hours ago, alf mcm said:

Perhaps he enlisted as Horace Browne?

 

...... or perhaps he enlisted under an alias?

[PRC]

2 hours ago, alf mcm said:

  This doesn't help your query, but Horace is on this Boer War Medal Roll, with 2 Scottish Horse. His number is 33526.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1686/images/31794_221503-00546?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=32dbc8d76997c37d9dd33946b40702a2&usePUB=true&_phsrc=pEt4945&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1550794

 

Regards,

Alf McM

 

I don't have access to Ancestry but the name search facility on the Anglo-Boer website does confirm him as BROWN, (without the E).

https://www.angloboerwar.com/name-search

So if the birth ceritificate has him as BROWNE with the E then both variants need to be searched for.

And if he was escaping his family responsibility then any name could have been used. (although not Horace Noorcroft as far as I can tell!) - @Sartene do you know his mothers maiden name? -  as that seems to have been a popular choice for an alias.

Was he a second or third generation descendant of immigrants - just wondering if we might find him in connection with an ancestral family home area.

 

Is there anything on the outward bound passenger lists from Australia for 1913 to show where he was heading?

 

And while not too old to see overseas service, if he changed his name to avoid family responsibility and therefore couldn't reference his time in the Scottish Horse, he may well have made himself younger as well and changed his place of birth.  At that point it's a real needle in a haystack.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

[George Rayner]

3 hours ago, alf mcm said:

Horace Noorcroft Browne

Ancestry has

Horace Moorcraft Browne

mother's maiden name

O'Neil

 

George

[alf mcm]

1 hour ago, George Rayner said:

Ancestry has

Horace Moorcraft Browne

mother's maiden name

O'Neil

 

George

 It's actually Horace Moorecroft Browne.

 

Regards,

Alf McM

[corisande]

There are a stack of Ancestry Trees for him, none touch on WWi , and all end in 1913,  but the background helps

 

1880 born in Patrick Plains NSW. Transcribed as Horace Noorcroft Browne. But believed to be Moorcroft or Moorecroft  in the trees - there is no definitive version. Son of Henry Browne and Isabella  Mary A J O'Neill

 

He signed on in Durban with 2nd Scottish Horse. His number is 33526.

 

1902 Apr 30. was discharged in South Africa from Scottish Horse

 

1909 Jul 21 Born Brisbane, a daughter, Kathleen Rita Browne

 

1910 Nov 4 Married in Brisbane to Maud Elizabeth Kelly

 

1911 directory living at North St, Brisbane as Horace M Brown

 

1912  Oct 28 Born a son Claude Sutton Browne at  Bundaberg, Queensland, Australia

 

1913 Census in Maryborough, Wide Bay, Queensland, . Living as Horace Moorcroft Browne, a Labourer at Alice St.  Also in Alice St are John James Browne (loco foreman), Maude Browne and Sarah Ewen Browne. There are Ancestry trees for John James Browne married to Sarah Ewen Thomson. But I cannot see any close relationship

 

I assume it was a marriage of necessity , given the daughter was born a good year before the parents married

 

It seems probable, given his service in South Africa, that he enlisted in WW1

• He did not enlist in Australian forces under his own name
• He could have used an alias, virtually impossible to find, unless we get a lucky break
• He could have joined the British Army, but not findable under his own name
• He might have died in WW1 but not seemingly under his own name
• The only area where I think we can make a break would be if we could get anything more for his South African service
• A lot of men walked out on their families at that time, and many wanted to make sure they could not be traced
• Oddly I cannot find any newspaper adverts by his wife trying to trace him. I don't know what Aus law was on presumed death before remarriage
• And as usual with this type of puzzle, descendants of his 1910 marriage to Maud Kelly, will have no idea what happened to him. And it is normally if he re-appears under some form of his own name that one can get him - those descendants will have no idea of his previous marriage
• It is a long shot and expensive, but the OP could try a DNA test (research what you need first, and choose your family member wisely) to see if they can tease out any descendants of a second marriage

Edited 23 June , 2021 by corisande

[johnboy]

If his wife remarried would it have been easy to do without a death certificate? Perhaps the marriage certificate for her second marriage will show if she calls herself widow or spinster

[Sartene]

15 hours ago, alf mcm said:

Your great grandfather's full name appears to be Horace Noorcroft Browne according to his Australian birth record.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=ANZ%2FBMD%2FNSW%2FB%2F0001543727

 

Perhaps he enlisted as Horace Browne?

 

Regards,

Alf McM

Yes, it does appear as Noorcroft, but it is an error of spelling, it should be Moorcroft. It was the Maiden name of his Great Grandmother on his mothers side. She gave it as a second name to Isabella's father,  James Moorcroft O'Neill,  and then his Horace's mother Isabella, gave it to Horace as a second name. But, thankyou for confirming that, much appreciated. Cheers.

Edited 23 June , 2021 by Sartene

[Sartene]

15 hours ago, alf mcm said:

  This doesn't help your query, but Horace is on this Boer War Medal Roll, with 2 Scottish Horse. His number is 33526.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1686/images/31794_221503-00546?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=32dbc8d76997c37d9dd33946b40702a2&usePUB=true&_phsrc=pEt4945&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1550794

 

Regards,

Alf McM

 

1 minute ago, Sartene said:

Yes, it does appear as Noorcroft, but it is an error of spelling, it should be Moorcroft. It was the Maiden name of his Great Grandmother on his mothers side. She gave it as a second name to Isabella's father,  James Moorcroft O'Neill,  and then his Horace's mother Isabella, gave it to Horace as a second name. But, thankyou for confirming that, much appreciated. Cheers.

Thankyou so much, I never knew that. I don't have access to Ancestry  but my brother does so I will have him check it out. Cheers

[Sartene]

16 hours ago, alf mcm said:

Your great grandfather's full name appears to be Horace Noorcroft Browne according to his Australian birth record.

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=ANZ%2FBMD%2FNSW%2FB%2F0001543727

 

Perhaps he enlisted as Horace Browne?

 

Regards,

Alf McM

When he enlisted for the Boer War he just used H. Brown. His birth certifcate says, Browne but he often did not use the E.  Yes the Noorcroft is a spelling error, it should read Moorcroft.

 

Thanks so much for your help. Cheers

Edited 23 June , 2021 by Sartene

[PRC]

A couple of things  has been nagging away at me - a five digit service number, (33526) and the 2nd Scottish Horse.

 

My understanding is that the 2nd Regiment of the Scottish Horse, (more commonly 2nd Scottish Horse), didn't come into being until 1908. What there was at the time of the Boer War was a 2nd Battalion of the Scottish Horse. The Scottish Horse was raised specifically for the Boer War Conflict.

 

Paul Nixon's Army Service number site adds that "The Scottish Horse were raised for the Boer War and fought as one regiment during that conflict. It was comprised of volunteers from Australia, Scotland and South Africa".

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2014/06/2nd-scottish-horse-1908-1914.html

 

This is expanded on at the Anglo-Boer War site, although in its description of the actions they were involved in, they refer to the 2nd Regiment rather than Battalion.

https://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/south-african-units/469-scottish-horse

 

The Anglo-Boer War site entry for Horace Brown, 2nd Battalion, Scottish Horse adds "Served 11 Nov 01 to 30 Apr 02. Discharged completion of service. Source: Nominal roll in WO127"

 

At least the five digit number series seems valid. Using the same source:-

33521 - no match

33522 - no match

33523 - no match

33524 is Lance Corporal Ernest William Whittaker. Served 21 Nov 01 to 26 May 02. Discharged Completion of Service PMB.

33525 - no match

33527 is Trooper Albert Rowland Calder Henderson. Served 21 Nov 01 to 20 May 02.

33528 is Trooper Edward Creech. Served 21 Nov 01 to 26 May 02. Discharged Completion of Service P'M'Burg, Second Number 602.

33529 is Trooper John Arthur Calderwood. Served 18 Nov 01 to 29 May 02. Discharged Completion of Service PMG

33530 is Trooper William Howard. Served 25 Nov 01 to 29 May 02. Discharged Completion of Service PMB.

33531 is Trooper Thomas Ryan. Served 21 Nov 01 to 21 May 02. Transferred to Commonwealth Regt.

 

All the individuals identified above served in the 2nd Battalion. The transcripts of the Queens South Africa Medal Roll on FindMyPast has some of them with other service numbers and places of discharge, (I assume P'M'Burg, PMG and PMB all refer to Pietermaritzburg).

 

I suspect these individuals may have originally arrived in South Africa with another unit - possibly one of the Queensland Bushmans Contingents that came from Australia. The earliest of these returned to Australia during the summer of 1901, but some individuals remained. Later contingents were known as the Australian Commonwealth Horse. (Could that be the Commonwealth Regiment referred to against Trooper Ryan.)

See https://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/australian-units/371-queensland-contingent-mentions

 

I may be doing the wrong searches, but I'n not finding any likely surviving service records for either the Boer War or WW1 for either the UK, (FindMyPast\Genes Reunited) or Australia, (National Archives of Australia). So I suspect the service records no longer exist, making this into another dead end.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Sartene]

13 hours ago, PRC said:

 

I don't have access to Ancestry but the name search facility on the Anglo-Boer website does confirm him as BROWN, (without the E).

https://www.angloboerwar.com/name-search

So if the birth ceritificate has him as BROWNE with the E then both variants need to be searched for.

And if he was escaping his family responsibility then any name could have been used. (although not Horace Noorcroft as far as I can tell!) - @Sartene do you know his mothers maiden name? -  as that seems to have been a popular choice for an alias.

Was he a second or third generation descendant of immigrants - just wondering if we might find him in connection with an ancestral family home area.

 

Is there anything on the outward bound passenger lists from Australia for 1913 to show where he was heading?

 

And while not too old to see overseas service, if he changed his name to avoid family responsibility and therefore couldn't reference his time in the Scottish Horse, he may well have made himself younger as well and changed his place of birth.  At that point it's a real needle in a haystack.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

Hi Peter,

 

Thanks again. His, Great, Grandmother came to Australia as an Irish Convict, His Grandfather was born in Australia and his father was born in Australia as well. His mothers maiden name was O'Neill. I have tried to find him as an outward bound passenger, but no luck as yet. Although,  I am not very skilled at all this as yet. I am guessing he would have to leave Australia with his real name for the paperwork, but perhaps not. Thanks again much Appreciated. Cheers

Edited 23 June , 2021 by Sartene

[Sartene]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

A couple of things  has been nagging away at me - a five digit service number, (33526) and the 2nd Scottish Horse.

 

My understanding is that the 2nd Regiment of the Scottish Horse, (more commonly 2nd Scottish Horse), didn't come into being until 1908. What there was at the time of the Boer War was a 2nd Battalion of the Scottish Horse. The Scottish Horse was raised specifically for the Boer War Conflict.

 

Paul Nixon's Army Service number site adds that "The Scottish Horse were raised for the Boer War and fought as one regiment during that conflict. It was comprised of volunteers from Australia, Scotland and South Africa".

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2014/06/2nd-scottish-horse-1908-1914.html

 

This is expanded on at the Anglo-Boer War site, although in its description of the actions they were involved in, they refer to the 2nd Regiment rather than Battalion.

https://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/south-african-units/469-scottish-horse

 

The Anglo-Boer War site entry for Horace Brown, 2nd Battalion, Scottish Horse adds "Served 11 Nov 01 to 30 Apr 02. Discharged completion of service. Source: Nominal roll in WO127"

 

At least the five digit number series seems valid. Using the same source:-

33521 - no match

33522 - no match

33523 - no match

33524 is Lance Corporal Ernest William Whittaker. Served 21 Nov 01 to 26 May 02. Discharged Completion of Service PMB.

33525 - no match

33527 is Trooper Albert Rowland Calder Henderson. Served 21 Nov 01 to 20 May 02.

33528 is Trooper Edward Creech. Served 21 Nov 01 to 26 May 02. Discharged Completion of Service P'M'Burg, Second Number 602.

33529 is Trooper John Arthur Calderwood. Served 18 Nov 01 to 29 May 02. Discharged Completion of Service PMG

33530 is Trooper William Howard. Served 25 Nov 01 to 29 May 02. Discharged Completion of Service PMB.

33531 is Trooper Thomas Ryan. Served 21 Nov 01 to 21 May 02. Transferred to Commonwealth Regt.

 

All the individuals identified above served in the 2nd Battalion. The transcripts of the Queens South Africa Medal Roll on FindMyPast has some of them with other service numbers and places of discharge, (I assume P'M'Burg, PMG and PMB all refer to Pietermaritzburg).

 

I suspect these individuals may have originally arrived in South Africa with another unit - possibly one of the Queensland Bushmans Contingents that came from Australia. The earliest of these returned to Australia during the summer of 1901, but some individuals remained. Later contingents were known as the Australian Commonwealth Horse. (Could that be the Commonwealth Regiment referred to against Trooper Ryan.)

See https://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/australian-units/371-queensland-contingent-mentions

 

I may be doing the wrong searches, but I'n not finding any likely surviving service records for either the Boer War or WW1 for either the UK, (FindMyPast\Genes Reunited) or Australia, (National Archives of Australia). So I suspect the service records no longer exist, making this into another dead end.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Hi Peter, I have just looked at his discharge papers from the Boer War. The Discharge number is 33526, he was registered as Horace Brown,  2nd Scottish Horse and was discharged 11th of November 1901 in Durban, rank Trooper. I have checked with the Australian War Museum, which is where I got his Discharge Papers but that is all they have for him. But I will check out the links you have sent, again, much appreciated.

[Sartene]

14 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

There are 6 Horace Brownes in the Medal Index Cards, none to Horace N Browne. 

Thanks Michelle, much appreciated. The truth is out there, somewhere. Thanks for your assistance much appreciated. Cheers

 

[PRC]

30 minutes ago, Sartene said:

I am guessing he would have to leave Australia with his real name for the paperwork, but perhaps not.

 

Sadly little official paperwork in those days. And of course he could have worked his passage as crew. By the sounds of things there is nothing definate about him actually leaving Australia at any point - none of the children were really old enough to have known them, and unless he continued to write to the family, being told by the mother that he had left to fight in the war and had died would have probably seemed a very plausible explanation for his absense.

 

23 minutes ago, Sartene said:

The Discharge number is 33526, he was registered as Horace Brown,  2nd Scottish Horse and was discharged 11th of November 1901 in Durban, rank Trooper.

 

At the moment it looks like Service number, (not discharge number) was 33526, and he appears to be part of a group already in South Africa that signed up for 6 months, starting in November 1901, not ending in November 1901. Alternatively a lot of transcribers on a number of websites have got things very wrong

 

What was niggling me is at the time of the Boer War, apart from a few corps like the Artillery, Engineers and Medical, most British Army units only used four digit service numbers. When they got to 9999 they went back to 1. By the sounds of things the Scottish Horse had their own system for everyhting, so I should have realised they might have used a five digit numbering system !

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Sartene]

13 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Ancestry has

Horace Moorcraft Browne

mother's maiden name

O'Neil

 

George

Hi George, Thanks that is correct, Horace Moorcroft Browne, Moorcroft was his great, grandmothers maiden name. Cheers