Taylor wounded St Julien 31 July 1917 and/or on HMHS Essequibo on 1 August 1918

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

I am due to visit the NA at Kew later this month, and hope to be able to look at Captain T.'T. Taylor's service record, amongst other things. 

The reason I am posting just now is that I have been taking advantage of the wet weather to look further into the 2 BRC WD, and have found two earlier references to Captain Taylor in that, namely IDEIESMO on 5 June 1918, and TIFEVISIT on 9/6/1918. This might accord with @TEW's guess earlier in this thread that he might have been wounded mid-May 1918. His injury is given as "GSW Foot", which would accord with his having lost a leg, but would not obviously explain the loss of an arm, though I believe that if gangrene sets in in one limb it can spread to other limbs?

I shall shortly post on a separate thread about the acronyms/code words in 2 BRC's WD.

Edited 2 October , 2021 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[seaJane]

Could the SMO on the acronym stand for Senior Medical Officer?

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 02/10/2021 at 17:24, seaJane said:

Could the SMO on the acronym stand for Senior Medical Officer?

Thank you, SeaJane, you may be right. I did wonder whether MO stood for "Medical Officer", but I couldn't get it to fit with IDEISABATE, which seems to me to be intended to cancel out IDEIESMO.

If you are interested, I have just posted a new thread about this on the Medical Services Forum. I think you may well have an interest in things medical, since you have compiled the list of medical books. I'm sure that medics will have a better chance of guessing at one the initials really stand for than me!

Tricia

Edited 25 January , 2023 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[DavidOwen]

To prevent duplication and confusion here is the new thread. This one will be locked

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

As an addendum to the above thread, I can report that I have now looked at the service record of Captain Tom Taylor Taylor AVC at Kew, and am now confident that this man was the man in the bed next to my grandfather on the Essequibo on 1 August 1918. His file shows that he was wounded on 27 May 1918, and invalided to England on 1 August 1918. His right leg was amputated below the knee, and he more than once refers in correspondence to being unable to bend his left knee to an angle of less than 125 degrees owing, he says, to pyraemic infection in the knee joint. He was still undergoing treatment in hospital (the Red Cross Hospital for Officers at 11 Chichester Terrace, Brighton) when he was demobilised on 30 June 1920, and there is a note that he was retired on grounds of ill health on 30 July 1920.

There is no reference to any injury to, or amputation of, an arm, so my grandfather must have been mistaken when describing him as having "one arm and one leg", but they met for only a short time on board the Essequibo, both in bed injured, so if my grandfather got his wires crossed it is perhaps not altogether surprising.

I am pleased that, with invaluable assistance from @TEW, I have now been able to identify both Taylors referred to in my grandfather's diaries in the context of the Hospital Ship Essequibo.

This thread was unlocked to enable me to update it with my findings regarding Captain T. T. Taylor. If anyone has any comments regarding the 2 BRC WD codewords, please could they post them on the other thread https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/293484-tifevisit-ideiesmo-ideepaw-ideisabate-ideentrans-ideenland-ideljack-idiercat-ideenreng-codes-in-2brc-wd/?tab=comments#comment-3060096 rather than here so as to avoid duplication/confusion.

 

[brianmorris547]

Tricia

I have been following both these threads with interest. I can not help with the codes but I wonder if G Taylor in the diary could in fact be S Taylor.

I checked TLLT for the Divisions employed on 31/07/1917 which gave me 41, 8, 24, 25, 30, 53 IB of 18, 39, 15, 51 and 55. I checked the WDs of the Divisional A&QMGs and the best possible from this exercise was 39 Div A&QMG which showed 2/Lt S Taylor 13 Royal Sussex wounded 31/07/1917. See attached courtesy TNA WO 95/2568.

The WD of 13 Royal Sussex records that two companies were in St Julien on 31/07. No more info in the WDs of 116 IB or 39 Div HQ GS.

2/Lt S Taylor 13 R Sussex is named in the Times OCL 16/08/1917 and the WOCL 14/08/1917. I could not find a wounded G Taylor in the Times or the WOCLs.

The only T T Taylor I found was 2/Lt T T Taylor (MC) of the South Wales Borderers. Times 07/09/1917 and WOCL 05/09/1917.

I feel that the man in the next cot to Norman must have been an Officer and since he is referred to by his surname one of lower rank than Captain.

Brian

Edited 19 February , 2023 by brianmorris547
typo

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 19/02/2023 at 18:41, brianmorris547 said:

I have been following both these threads with interest. I can not help with the codes but I wonder if G Taylor in the diary could in fact be S Taylor.

Thank you Brian, this has made me look again at what my grandfather's diary actually says, and the earlier entries on this thread about Taylor.

In his diary entry for 1 August 1918, describing the crossing to the UK on board the Essequibo, after having been briefly admitted to 2 BRC with a broken ankle the previous day, my grandfather says:

Interleaved in the same page of the diary, but loose, is a post card of the Essequibo, on the reverse of which is written:

Because of the coincidence of the name "Taylor" appearing twice on the same page, I initially tried to shoehorn the mentions of Taylo0r into being references to the same man, which I am now certain was a mistake, and has served simply to confuse the issue.

So, for clarity, I will set out where this thread has taken us with regard to the two Taylor references, starting with the reference on the post card.

G.Taylor:

It is clear that the initial on the post card is G. Taking what is said on the post card at face value, this G. Taylor would have been wounded on 31 July 1917 at St. Julien. The date "August 1917" could then have been the date of his voyage on the Essequibo.

In his post of 10 July 2021 Tew noted that he had found "a Sgt. Gilbert Taylor 201099 of 2/5th Lancashire Fusiliers. On a wounded list of 8/9/1917". The wounded list to which Tew was referring is the War Office weekly casualty list, and further examination revealed that the same wounded list includes the names of a number of other NCOs of the 2/5th LF mentioned by Thomas Hope Floyd in his At Ypres with Best-Dunkley as having been wounded at St Julien on 31 July 1917, namely Sergeant Baldwin, Sergeant Brogden, and Corporal Livesay, so to my mind this puts it virtually beyond doubt that the G. Taylor on the post card is Sergeant Gilbert Taylor 201099. My grandfather could easily have obtained the post card from him at a post-war 2/5th LF reunion, and this would explain why the post card was loose in the dairy, rather than being pasted in, as was my grandfather's normal practice. My only other wuestion regarding this G. Taylor, is whether it might have been the same Taylor, initial unknown, who my grandfather mentions as being one of his signallers when he started off as Signalling Officer when he first crossed to France with the 2/5th LF in May 1915, but I think probably not, as I have looked at the MIC for Sergeant Gilbert Taylor, and there is no reference to a 15 Star or date of entry into a theatre of war.

Taylor in the next cot on 01.08.1918:

As well as knowing that this man was invalided back to Britain on the Essequibo on 1 August 1918, we are told that he had "one arm and one leg", and that he had spent "many months" at No 2 BRC. Tew's prompt led to the examination of the 2 BRC WD, and that revealed that there was a Captain T.T. Taylor recorded in the WD as IDEIESMO on 5 June 1918, TIFEVISIT on 9/6/1918, IDEEPAW on 30/07/1918, and IDEENTRANS on both 30/071918 and 31/07/1918, so a candidate for the "Taylor in the next cot" if IDEENTRANS means "transferred to the UK" or similar. He had been at No 2 BRC for at least nearly 2 months, which can fairly easily be reconciled with the "many months" of my grandfather's diary, as that would have been based on information gleaned from a relatively brief chat on the boat, which is no doubt the reason why he is referred to only by his surname. So far as I am aware this is the only mention of this Taylor by my grandfather. In the 2 BRC WD Captain Taylor's injury is given as GSW Foot, and he has a surviving service record at Kew. His full name is Captain Tom Taylor. I visited Kew in October last year, and took the opportunity to look at his record. With apologies for the quality of the photographs, which I took without risking damaging the documents by trying to flatten them as they were intended only as aide memoires for me, I attach some extracts, courtesy of National Archives.

                                                                                                                                  

 

The first extract gives the date of wounding as 27 May 1918, and confirms transfer to England on 1 August 1918.

I am a little puzzled as to why the only injury mentioned in the 2 BRC WD is to the foot if, as my grandfather says, he had only one arm and one leg. There are no surviving Medical Board reports in the service record. However, I believe that the records above suggest that there was more than one serious disability, as a report is required as to whether the injuries other than the loss of a leg are still very severe and likely to be permanent. There is also an enquiry as to whether "No 2" (whatever that is) is "due to an injury". And Captain Taylor seems to have been given two separate awards on the same day, twice, presumably for different disabilities. I therefore wonder whether it is possible that Captain Taylor also lost the use of an arm, perhaps in a way that was not obviously the result of being wounded? There is no other assistance so far as I can see in the service record, where the main focus is the leg, for which Captain Taylor was receiving treatment for a very long time even after he returned to the UK.

Despite the apparent discrepancy in the injuries suffered, I am fairly sure that Captain Tom Taylor Taylor AVC must have been my grandfather's fellow passenger on the Essequibo.

Having revisited the thread and compiled the above resume, I don't think that 2nd Lieutenant S. Taylor is relevant to this enquiry, and I'm sorry that I set the hare running that he might have been by my initial suggestion that both references to Taylor in my GF's diary were to the same man.

 

 

 

Edited 2 March , 2023 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[brianmorris547]

Tricia

I suggested 2/Lt S Taylor because I thought that it was the same man. I agree that Gilbert Taylor is the man on the postcard and the other Taylor in the diary is not S Taylor. I have just spent a good couple of hours with the WDs of 164 IB and 55 Div HQ GS.

The WOCL for 08/09/1917 does indeed name under Wounded - Lancashire Fusiliers:-

Baldwin, 203889 A/Sjt R C (Higher Broughton). Brogden, 203198 L/Sjt C R (Middleton). Livesay, 204150 Cpl F (Rochdale) and Taylor, 201099 A/Sjt G (Bury).

Sgt Baldwin was awarded the MM. His MM Card confirms 2/5 LFs. Attached is the Routine Order dated 23/08/1917 from the WD of 55 Div A&QMG. It must have been for 31/07. TNA WO 95/2909. 

Sgt Brogden was k in a on 20/09/1917 with 2/5 Bn.

Sgt Taylor is also named on a document dated August 1918 from the RE Signals Depot.

The WD of 164 IB for 31/07/1917 records that the Bn got to Wurst Farm on the Green Line and then had to retire to Spree Farm on the Black Line. This map from the WD of 55 Div HQ GS shows both locations. TNA WO 95/2903. The Bn was close to St Julien and Fortuin so the postcard is accurate.

Brian

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

1 hour ago, brianmorris547 said:

Taylor, 201099 A/Sjt G (Bury).

The fact that Sergeant Gilbert Taylor came from  Bury makes it even more likely that he and my grandfather may have met up socially after the war, as my grandfather was also from Bury.

 

1 hour ago, brianmorris547 said:

Sgt Taylor is also named on a document dated August 1918 from the RE Signals Depot.

Does this mean that he was a signaller, and is it at all possible that after all he may have been a signaller in my GF's unit, notwithstanding the absence of reference to a 15 Star on his MIC?

Tricia

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

The fact that Sergeant Gilbert Taylor came from  Bury makes it even more likely that he and my grandfather may have met up socially after the war, as my grandfather was also from Bury.

 

Does this mean that he was a signaller, and is it at all possible that after all he may have been a signaller in my GF's unit, notwithstanding the absence of reference to a 15 Star on his MIC?

Tricia

As a general principle higher formation signallers (infantry division, and all-arms, corps, etc.) came from the Corps of Royal Engineers - ‘Signals Service’** at that time.  Battalion signallers were badged regimentally, and so would have been Lancashire Fusiliers.

**post war becoming the independent ‘Royal Corps of Signals’.

Edited 21 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[brianmorris547]

Tricia

This is the document naming 201099 G Taylor and 203500 (should be 203700) E Sheldon of A Co 5 LFs at Bedford. I had a look in the Bn WD for July/August 1918 but could see any references. Gilbert Taylor has a "O" against his name in the Medal Rolls so no 1914-15 Star.

EDIT: For the record Capt T T Taylor is in the WOCL 13/06/1918 and the Times 15/06/1918 p 8.

Brian

 

Edited 21 February , 2023 by brianmorris547
additional info

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thanks Brian and Frogsmile. it looks to be very unlikely that Gilbert Taylor was the Taylor who was in my GF's Battalion signalling section in May 1915, but, in any event, they would have had plenty in common so as to explain how it might have happened that Gilbert passed his post card of the Essequibo to my GF at some time after the war.

Tricia

[brianmorris547]

Tricia

I should have refreshed my memory before I researched S Taylor because it is clear that you had doubts about G taylor on the card and Taylor in the HS cot being the same person. I read through TEW's posts again and his replies to your 4 pages of the Red Cross Hospital WD. He had even read the WD of 34 Ambulance Train. 

Anyway, Taylor the Signaller. The 1914-15 Medal Roll for 2/5 LFs is in WO 329/2673. There were eleven men with the surname Taylor who went out with the Bn on 04/05/1915. 

2771 Joseph Taylor died on 24/07/1915 in hospital at Wimeraux. He was born and enlisted in Bury.

3518 Jim Taylor died of wounds on 10/08/1916 at a Military Hospital in York. His parents were from Oldham.

1519 Frank Taylor was k in a on 15/08/1916. He was from Heywood. 

I have not found any Service Records yet to see if any were Signallers but I will continue tomorrow by checking their 1917 service numbers.

Brian

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 22/02/2023 at 20:39, brianmorris547 said:

I should have refreshed my memory before I researched S Taylor because it is clear that you had doubts about G taylor on the card and Taylor in the HS cot being the same person.

I needed to revisit the thread too to remind myself of the details. I did recall that I was puzzled that Captain T.T. Taylor's injury seemed not to match up with the description given by my grandfather, but your bringing the thread to the top again prompted me to study his service record more closely and find a possible explanation, so thank you for that.

The Taylor who was in the Battalion signalling section was still alive and well in August 1915 according to my GF's diary, but soon after that my GF became 2nd in command of "Z" Company, and he does not mention Taylor the signaller after that.

[brianmorris547]

Tricia

For the record the eleven Taylors who went out with 2/5 on 04/05/1915, according to the Medal Roll, are:

2925 Taylor, A - Discharged 29/12/1917 - 280811 Albert Taylor.

3112 Taylor, G - Disembodied 14/04/1919 - I can not find a post 1917 number.

2484 Taylor, J H - MH 106/1086 adm 18 GH 28/07/1915 2/5 rank shown as Drummer ? - Discharged para 392 03/10/1916 wounds. 

2407 Taylor, H - Disembodied 23/02/1919 - 200646 Harry Taylor.

2409 Taylor, E - Disembodied 06/03/1919 - 200648 Edward Taylor - named on a 1918 casualty List serving with 1/5 LFs.

2771 Taylor, J - Died 24/07/1915.

2560 Taylor, G E - Disembodied 31/03/1919 - I can not find a post 1917 number.

2711 Taylor, M - Disembodied 15/07/1919 - MH 106/160 adm 139 FA 11/09/1916 wounds - I can not find a post 1917 number.

1519 Taylor, F - k in a 15/08/1916 - Frank Taylor.

2923 Taylor, H - Discharged 11/12/1918 - I can not find a post 1917 number or a SWB.

3518 Taylor, J - d of w 10/08/1916.

It's possible that those whose 1917 numbers I can not find transferred to other Units but with a name like Taylor it's difficult to check. Their MRICs show that there was some kind of mix up with their War and Victory Medals and I can not find them on the BW&V Medal Rolls. I wonder if 3112 Taylor G was in fact Gilbert Taylor, who we know had some connection with Signals.

Brian

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you Brian, I believe that the Taylor in my GF's signalling section in May 1915 must be one of those that you have listed, though I don't suppose that we will ever know for certain which, save that we can rule out 2771 Taylor J.

I have looked at the front of the MIC available digitally from the NA for 3112 Taylor, G, which shows him as a Private who entered France on 4 May 1915, and therefore awarded the 15 Star, but there is no record of the British War and Victory medals, and someone has written in the remarks box (if I have read it correctly "Dism. Obs. no B.W. & Card", which I read as meaning "Dismissed. Observe no British War and Victory Card", which would be hard to square with Sergeant Gilbert Taylor 201099, unless Taylor G. 3112 was both reinstated and then promoted to Sergeant.

Tricia

[TEW]

The 'Dism' part means he was disembodied, not relevant to his medal entitlement.

Brian's list shows something difficult going on for those proving awkward in finding their six digit numbers. Seems a possibility the four & six digit numbers may not have been matched up for some men so 3112 & 201090 could be the same man with two MICs.

TEW

[TEW]

Harold Roberts has an MIC with number 201100 and 3113. Date of entry 4/5/15. Almost certain that 201099 had been 3112.

TEW

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

17 minutes ago, TEW said:

Harold Roberts has an MIC with number 201100 and 3113. Date of entry 4/5/15. Almost certain that 201099 had been 3112.

Excellent, and thank you for correcting my misinterpretation of "Dism."

Am I right in thinking that these cards may have additional information on the reverse, including addresses, which might further show whether 3112 and 201099 were the same man?

Tricia

[TEW]

I checked the reverse of 3112 which is blank.

TEW

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you!

Tricia

[brianmorris547]

Tricia

I had a look in the BNL via FMP using Reunion Lancashire as my search terms for 1920-1929. It came back with 1/6 LFs in the Todmorden paper in 1920 and 2/6 LFs in the Rochdale Times 1923. I know that there are reports of reunions in the Bolton papers in the 20s for 5 Loyal North Lancs. There might be something in the Bury papers. I have never been to Bury library but have been meaning to in order to check recruiting to the CPRE and CPRA in 1915.

Brian

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

13 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

I had a look in the BNL via FMP using Reunion Lancashire as my search terms for 1920-1929. It came back with 1/6 LFs in the Todmorden paper in 1920 and 2/6 LFs in the Rochdale Times 1923. I know that there are reports of reunions in the Bolton papers in the 20s for 5 Loyal North Lancs. There might be something in the Bury papers. I have never been to Bury library but have been meaning to in order to check recruiting to the CPRE and CPRA in 1915.

Thanks Brian, and thank you also for looking out the list of Taylors that crossed to France on 4/5/1915 which led to Tew looking out the two numbers for Harold Roberts which support your suggestion that the two G. Taylors might be the same.

By the way, I'm sure that I should know, but what do CPRA and CPRE stand for?

Tricia

[brianmorris547]

9 hours ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

By the way, I'm sure that I should know, but what do CPRA and CPRE stand for?

Tricia

Tricia

County Palatine Royal Artillery and County Palatine Royal Engineers. They were recruited locally from Manchester and the surrounding towns in 1915 by Lord Derby (CPRA) and the Manchester Recruiting Committee (CPRE). My gf was a plumber and he enlisted into the CPRE in Bolton in March 1915. They were recruited to form a complete Division with the Pals Bns raised in Manchester and Liverpool (30 Div).

Brian

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

13 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

County Palatine Royal Artillery and County Palatine Royal Engineers. They were recruited locally from Manchester and the surrounding towns in 1915 by Lord Derby (CPRA) and the Manchester Recruiting Committee (CPRE)

Thank you, I hope that you find what you are looking for, especially insofaras relevant to your gf.

Tricia