Italian and Japanese Bayonet Advice (dates/distinguishing GW examples)

[4thGordons]

Looking for quick pointers.

I have been using the brief lull between semesters to inventory bayonets etc. I have tried to pair each of my GW rifles with an appropriate bayonet and nearly have them all matched up, however I am struggling with two particular types and I am hoping one of the experts can give me a quick tutorial. 

 

The two types are: the Japanese Type 30 Bayonet for the Arisaka rifles and carbines and the Italian M1891 Carcano bayonet.

 

The basic issue is that both bayonet types continued in production throughout the 20s/30s and well into WWII, yet examples are often not dated. Some WWII Carcano bayonets are, but not all. The Arisaka bayonets do not appear to be dated although sometimes the production dates can be deduced from the manufacturer marks (eg those produced in Korea)

 

I actually have a very detailed reference work on the Arisaka and they appear to be an absolute minefield of variations and manufacturers and minor variations and even after perusing it I am not entirely sure I am clear on all of the intricacies.

 

As I currently understand it, in the case of the Japanese bayonet I am looking for an example with: A hooked quillon, a birds head shaped pommel (with rounded as opposed to flat sides), recessed /flush scale screws and a serial number stamped on the end of the pommel (lower = earlier?)

 

I am not looking for perfect or particularly special bayonets (I tend to rely on online acutions/sales these days) but if possible I would prefer to get pre 1918 examples of both types. The majority of examples in circulation appear to be WWII vintage (for obvious reasons) so,  are there any obvious short cuts/markers that would help me identify earlier blades?

 

Thanks in advance,

Chris

[AndyBsk]

The italian bayonets could be probably dated by scabbard which is normally dated, the metall body scabbards are from WW1 only, the steel fitings on M91 were used in late 30ies. I believe the blades were blackened in late of war or postwar, many reworks are confirmed with new grips and rivets.

About Japan Arisaka is excellent book from Raymond LaBar, some years ago printed in USA, "Bayonets of Japan" when i am correct the WW1 pieces should be all from Tokyo Koishikawa arsenal, were serialed on pommel, wout any suffix letters,  the production was prior to 1922 a 3,1 Million and the 2,5million dated should be war period , all were made with countured pommel and normal hook. The shortened hooks , flatened pommel are all WW2.

[4thGordons]

Thanks Andy, I have Larry Johnson's book on "Japanese Bayonets"  (billed as "The definitive work on Japanese Bayonets 1870 to the present"

What you say confirms what I believed -- but I did not know about the suffix so that is helpful.

 

Good to know about the metal scabbard for the M91 -- that might be the shortcut I am looking for!

Cheers

Chris

 

[N White]

My understanding for Japan mirrors what Andy said.  So the bayonet below, while at first glance looks like an early one, will, by the series character, have been paired with a rifle made post 1939.  

 

I found the site below helpful.

https://oldmilitarymarkings.com/japanese_markings.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[4thGordons]

Thanks Neil - I had found the site you linked but found it rather lacking in dates!

 

I have a bayonet almost identical to the one you posted above - which was part of what prompted me to post!

 

I think there is a series mark (although it is very faint)

 

Also the MRD seems too large for both of my Arisakas (so I wondered if it had been used with a 7.7mm rifle) - it does look thin compared to others and there appears to be a symbol/pictogram stamped below it.

 

Thanks for posting!

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Chris this following thread has a little information regarding the Italian M1891 bayonet, from back when I was struggling with the same problem.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/180981-sciabola-baionetta-modello-91/

Cheers, SS

 

[4thGordons]

Cheers for that SS - I had done a search as I recalled some discussion but I failed to pick this up.

I have one M1891 bayonet which seems to be good (although now I have to go and check and see if the latch button has parallel sides or not - the scabbard is 1917 dated.

I need another one though.

Hope all is well with you and yours.

Chris

[AndyBsk]

You should measure the barell ring MRD but with that diameter and new other wood grips i would tend to using by Siam, or other south Asia country not by Japan, more real the new number on pommel looks large, maybe someone could deciphere the marking on crossguard, but i dont believe japan serials started with zero, more real there is Q letter or something else. Offcoarse there is possible it was used by China.

Edited 31 May , 2021 by AndyBsk