Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Sciabola Baionetta Modello 91


shippingsteel

Recommended Posts

I'm looking for some direction on how to go about period dating these Italian M1891 bayonets. It's a subject that has had me beat for a long time.

They were in use over such a long period of time that finding a GW era example can be quite problematic - the early ones were never dated at all.

The first leather scabbards were often dated along the seam which is useful, while the bayonets themselves only had a serial number on the guard.

I have an extremely good reference book on Italian bayonets by Cesare Calamandrei, however it is all in Italian and doesn't provide much on dates.

So I picked up this example today and I'm hoping it may fit the bill as a representative GW period piece, as the overall set appears to be on the mark.

It has the early leather scabbard with the correct frog (which appears to have some age) and the bayonet has an early AF8*** serial across the guard.

I have heard that the serial number can be cross referenced to the dated Mannlicher-Carcano rifles to provide a rough estimate, but I'm not that sure.

So I live in hope that I finally might have found that elusive example to fill the spot in the Italian side of the collection. Will know more when it arrives. :rolleyes:

Cheers, S>S

post-52604-0-33960800-1338704041_thumb.j

post-52604-0-97686500-1338704063_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another interesting feature of this bayonet is the unusually shaped press stud or release catch, which seems to taper in at the bottom.

It is something that I haven't noticed before on the later period examples, which are regular shaped (both sides parallel & symmetrical)

I am hoping this means it is an earlier wartime model, as the only reference I can find is illustrated in a Carter/Walter book from the 70's.

The hilt shown there was found on an ersatz pattern M91 bayonet which was modified with a different muzzle-ring for the Vetterli in 1915.

If anyone has seen this odd shaped press stud before, please let me know. Any clues to help date these bayonets would be appreciated.

Cheers, S>S

post-52604-0-24995300-1338727319_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And for illustration purposes, here is a pic of the representative set shown, in use with a Bersaglieri - these things have been around a while.!

Cheers, S>S

post-52604-0-28272600-1338731441_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Well my new acquisition has now arrived, and after a cursory inspection I have to say that I am quite pleased. Looks well used but is clean and the set shows some age.

The leather of the scabbard and frog is in reasonably good condition but shows the normal cracking that is expected, and the patina of the bayonet matches well overall.

Unfortunately no markings or dates to be found on the scabbard, and any markings that may have been on the ricasso have been rubbed off with use, but it has a serial.

These bayonets were routinely numbered on the crossguard with a serial, often starting with a letter/s prefix then a 4/5 digit number. This example is stamped AF 8014.

So as mentioned previously I believed this to be relatively early in the numbering series, and was hoping it to be around the GW time of manufacture ie. a period bayonet.

After a fairly short search for serial numbers on the M91 rifles, I managed to uncover this example below. A 1917 Brescia made with the serial AT 7639 - so far so good.!

So assuming my bayonet was made in the same run of serial numbers as this rifle, than the production date of the bayonet should logically be before 1917, and wartime.!!

Cheers, S>S

post-52604-0-95665800-1339593678_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And as I alluded to earlier, the unusual press catch shape is something which I also believe points to an earlier time of manufacture and of possibly GW period.

I found this illustration in the early Carter & Walter reference book "The Bayonet" and it shows some M91 bayonets, the top example being a 1915 modification.

It's quite easy to see the different overall shapes of the pommels, and also the top example has a noticeably tapered press catch, the lower one being WW2 era.

I have added the arrows and captions to help explain the points of difference which I have observed. (Keep in mind the top bayonet was modified for the Vetterli)

Cheers, S>S

post-52604-0-04796800-1339594503_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cheers S>S for that.

It's certainly something to go on, more than we had before, because of the lack of dates I bought a very battered M91 TS as I know they were only made up to the 1920's so its more likely to the GW period example. The dealer I go to in Cardiff has quite a few M91 bayonets but they could be anything from 1891 to the 1950's so this might help ID'ing them as at least early models.

Gaz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

NOT my field at all, but I do recall that these bayonets usually / always have a manufacturer's and / or city name on the ricasso. Is that the case with yours? Just thinking that if you can find out which factory was working when then that might help.

Trajan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats right Gaz, I've been putting off getting one of these for ages, simply because of the dating issue - but when I saw this one together with the scabbard and frog ... I couldn't pass.!

PS. Did you get to see the rugby match the other night.? It was a cracker of a game and I'm looking forward to the rest of the series. I like watching the Welsh - always plenty of spirit.! :thumbsup:

Cheers, S>S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For future reference purposes here is another GW dated rifle from Brescia with the serial number BB 4228, showing date of manufacture to be 1918.

Cheers,S>S

post-52604-0-17129800-1339675549_thumb.jpost-52604-0-14938300-1339675561_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...