Help Understanding Pension Cards

[MGuest]

Hi, 

 

I'm trying to understand the wording on the pension and medal cards. This is my great grandad Pension and Medal card, I wish to find out more information as the family don't know much about him and where he came from in England.

  He was based in Waterford Ireland 1911/1912 and also from birth records from his children he was based in India in 1913. I would love to know what regiment he was in so can find out where in India he was based and where did go from there to fight in WW1 and what was his role as a driver. 

 

The 1914 medal card - under Corps - its states:

 

11th BDE (I think) what does this mean

RFA - Royal Field Artillery 

R.E

REg No. 63858

26247

303524

Medal Column -

Victory - BE/104B

4 Star RFA 44

 

Trans  1/517

 

His pension card

WR 303524

A 1845453 - what does A stand for

Rank Rating - Sper what does this mean

Also red numbers 13/M/9091

 

Second Pension Card

 

Awards Refer No.

13/M/ 9091

13/W/4289

 

Third Pension Card

Reject 314380

13/w/4289

 

Thank you so much

 

Martina Robinson

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BillyH]

11th Brigade, Royal Field Artillery.

RE suggests Royal Engineers, but it would help if you attach the card for us to see.

 

BillyH.

[MGuest]

sorry attached now

 

[Matlock1418]

27 minutes ago, MGuest said:

great grandad Pension and Medal card, I wish to find out more information as the family don't know much about him

Welcome to GWF.

Thanks for his name.

You had given us enough to track him down - Was just about to post his name from his Medal Index Card!

George D GUEST

He qualified for a 1914 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal as 63858 - first landing in a theatre of war [France & Flanders would be the normal assumption] on 7/11/14 - he was a Driver so would have been in charge of driving/riding horses probably attached to a gun and limber/ammunition wagon [most artillery was horse drawn at that stage and that was typical of the Royal Field Artillery].

He then moved to the Royal Engineers as 26247

You actually missed his further move/second incarnation as a Royal Engineer - No. WR/303524 - Which relates to Waterways and Railways

I'd be speculating but might suggest that his RE role was likely to also involved driving horse-drawn wagons.

One of these moves {Transfers] occurred 1/5/17

The Roll & Page details help find the pages on Medal Rolls [RFA & RE] on which his medal entitlement are to be found [commonly accessible via Ancestry}

Hope that has got you started.

:-) M

Edited 7 May , 2021 by Matlock1418
typo

[Matlock1418]

His second Royal Engineer number of WR/303524 [303524] is very useful and reveals much when two a pension record cards at the WFA/Fold3 are accessed

George Daniel GUEST

It appears his widow, Nellie, made a pension claim [it seems it might have been rejected - sadly such files are no longer accessible these days as probably long destroyed by the Ministry of Pensions] - from the 13/W/4289 claim references we can see that the claim was handled by the Ireland office [13] at the Ministry of Pensions at least on 14/10/27

We can also see another, earlier claim reference - 13/M/9091 - again at the Ireland Office.

This claim reference seems to me to be rather reminiscent of a disability claim - possibly be a claim by GDG. 

Not least these cards are very interesting in that he appears to have yet another RE number A/1845452

This number is particularly interesting in that it is so long and seems to me to be likely indicative of post-war service..

Post-war servicemen were typically given seven digit Service Numbers [as opposed to the various shorter earlier Regimental/Corps Numbers]

The good news about these longer numbers is that they are often the key access to service records [other than those 'Burnt Records' that survived the Blitz in WW2] as they have been differently kept by the MoD

It is usually possible to still be able to apply to for such service records - a fee is payable and a pretty long wait seems the norm 

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

:-) M

 

Edit:
From yet another pension card [seemingly created 12/10/27] A Death Cert may have been received. No further details are available. 

From the rear of the card an address is provided: 12 Grange Duran, Ballytruckle, Waterford

 

Edited 7 May , 2021 by Matlock1418
Clarify details relating to pension claims and Edit

[MGuest]

Hi Matlock, 

 

Thank you so much for all this information, so helpful. As I didn't know what I was looking a, its  all so confusing. 

 

Do you think on the medal card under Corps it states 11th Bde - would this mean he was in the 11th Brigade ? as would love to find out where in India he was based.

 

Nellie was his wife and he died May 1927 aged 35 and I think he had injures from the war and this was probably the disability claim. She was left with 6 children and back in those days in Ireland there was no social care. So she was desperate to get some pension money. In the end she ended up with all her children taken away from her and they were all sent to the horrible industrial schools in Ireland and she was sent to one of those awful laundry for mother and babies but she was sent into the asylum until she died aged 77. Hence why we don't know anything about George Daniel Guest and was lucky to find his pension card and it had the correct address where they were living in Waterford. I presume he must have came over from England to Waterford with the Army and then was sent to India and France. 

 

If I apply for the service records what more information would I get. 

 

Thank you so much for all your help !

 

Martina

[Matlock1418]

Martina,

A very sad tale. :-(

7 minutes ago, MGuest said:

Do you think on the medal card under Corps it states 11th Bde - would this mean he was in the 11th Brigade ? as would love to find out where in India he was based.

As for his army career - then there are other members who may be/likely to be able to help.

3 minutes ago, MGuest said:

If I apply for the service records what more information would I get. 

I really don't know - it seems very likely to be pot luck

It is likely to be a long wait - many months I fear like = But I know if I were you then I would be applying, and waiting!

Good luck.

:-) M

[Polar Bear]

11th Brigade seems very likely for it was a pre war regular formation and it was in India at the outbreak of the war. Specifically at that point it was attached to the 7th (Meerut) Division of the Indian Army. More information can be found to start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_(Meerut)_Division

 

On the 22nd November 1914 11th Brigade was transferred to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_(Lahore)_Division

 

Hope this helps,

 

P

[Matlock1418]

On 07/05/2021 at 10:30, MGuest said:

If I apply for the service records what more information would I get. 

As I said earlier, it could be pot luck with perhaps pre-war, wartime and post-war info - but who knows at present?

But I've had another thought ...

Perhaps forum pal @clk may be able to help and save you a bit of a wait to determine if such records still exist - and do at least preliminary search to see if records for

George Daniel GUEST, A/1845452, RE are likely to be held by the MoD.

Hope it works out.

:-) M

Edited 8 May , 2021 by Matlock1418
typo

[George Rayner]

Within Find My Past there is a medical record for a little more detail on WW1 service

 

 

This is November 1915 and appears to be 83 Battery(?) 11th Brigade with five years service so signed on in 1910.

 

Hope that is new and helps

 

George

 

[MGuest]

Hi George 

 

Thank you so much for finding this ! I’m so excited you are able to find this as now I know what brigade he was in. I have now joined find my past , but finding difficult I’m finding this record . What did you type in your search ?

 

thank you 

 

Martina

[FROGSMILE]

An artillery brigade (in your case the 11th) was what is now called an artillery regiment.  It contained a number of batteries (usually three) each of which comprised of four guns (increased to six in war).

 

From the LongLongTrail adjunct to this website (top left of page):

 

XI Brigade of the Royal Field Artillery

 

This was a unit of Britain’s pre-war regular army. It is also sometimes shown as 11 Brigade RFA.

 

History:

 

Comprising numbers 83, 84 and 85 Batteries, this brigade came under command of the 7th (Meerut) Division of the Indian Army. It moved to the 3rd (Lahore) Division on 22 November 1914.  At a later stage the batteries appear to have been lettered, e.g. ‘D Battery’ (instead of a number).

 

When the Division left France, the brigade remained and eventually came under command of the 3rd Canadian Division before going to the 4th Canadian Division in October 1916, with which it served until August 1917.

 

At that point it became an Army Brigade and served with the following: Fourth Army in August 1917, Fifth Army in November 1917, Fourth Army again in December 1917, Second Army in February 1918.

 

The War Diary of 11 Brigade RFA is in the National Archives at Kew in this file:

WO 95/293 Army Troops 

WO 95/293 11 Army Field Artillery Brigade 1917 Sept. - 1919Jan. 

WO 95/293 23 Army Field Artillery Brigade 1917 Jan. - 1919 Mar. 

WO 95/293 28 Army Field Artillery Brigade 1917 Jan. - 1919 Apr.

 

War Diaries don’t normally mention men by name other than officers, but the location of the unit, and a brief description of its activities, is usually given for each day.

 

Some of the war diaries mentioned have been digitised by the excellent Australian War Memorial and can be read online without any fee here: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1354425

 

The following gives a good idea of his life during the artillery part of his service during WW1: https://sites.google.com/site/175brigaderfa/a-gunner-s-life

 

[George Rayner]

Here's a link for you

British Armed Forces, First World War Soldiers' Medical Records Image | findmypast.co.uk

 

George

[MGuest]

Thank you so much !

[museumtom]

 

I think the address is Grange Terrace.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

You wanted to know where 83 Battery were in 1913, they were at Jubbulpore: https://archive.org/details/hartsannualarmy1913lond/page/220/mode/2up?view=theater

 

You might find this link useful for any other of his connections with India: https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Stations_of_the_Royal_Artillery_in_India

 

Army garrisons in India were known as Cantonments: https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Jubbulpore

 

The soldiers in white in the photo of the cantonment "bazar" (bazaar = market) are artillerymen.

 

 

[kenf48]

I see you've hidden the other thread 

 

However surviving records indicate he was third echelon in the IWT, this means line of communication. WR/303527 was transferred on 1st April, and posted to Basrah which was the entry port for Mesopatamia.

He would in all probability have been employed in the port moving supplies in the docks, most of which went up river.

[MGuest]

1 minute ago, kenf48 said:

I see you've hidden the other post -bit extreme!

 

However surviving records indicate he was third echelon in the IWT, this means line of communication. WR/303527 was transferred on 1st April, and posted to Basrah which was the entry port for Mesopatamia.

He would in all probability have been employed in the port moving supplies in the docks, most of which went up river.

Hi

 

Thanks for the advice as I’m new this forum , I don’t know the protocol so  I hidden the new post and as suggested I willI add on to this post.

 

Thank you for this information, it’s so good you can provide these details from these records 

 

Much appreciated as every detail helps 

 

[Terry_Reeves]

MGuest

 

His first RE number 262477 was issued in the first quarter of 1917. His WR pre-fixed number was issued after March 1918. This came about as the result of the re-numbering of transportation troops to bring them all together.  His rank of Sapper indicates he had a recognised trade, indeed, he would have been trade tested to show he was a skilled man.

 

The IWT in Mesopotamia was a huge organisation which consisted of locally employed men, Indians and Africans as well as total of 3,499 British Officers and British other ranks. The major centres of employment were at Nasiriyah, Amara, Karradah, Baghdad and Basrah the latter being the main construction repair and repair yard.  Have you any idea what his pre-war trade was?

 

TR

Edited 10 May , 2021 by Terry_Reeves

[MGuest]

Terry - thank you for this information. He was 20yrs old when you joined the war, but don't know what his pre-war trade was. But as a guess he would have been a coal miner just like his farther and the rest of the family. 

 

Forgesmile & museumtom thank you for all your help 

Edited 11 May , 2021 by MGuest

[MGuest]

I know found this Royal Engineers dated 1919 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, MGuest said:

Terry - thank you for this information. He was 20yrs old when you joined the war, but don't know what his pre-war trade was. But as a guess he would have been a coal miner just like his farther and the rest of the family. 

 

Forgesmile & museumtom thank you for all your help 

 

If he joined the Army in 1910, as we know that he did, I imagine that he was at best a trainee, or apprentice of some kind.  Did you say he was 20 in 1914?  If so he would have enlisted as a Boy entrant in 1910 straight from school aged 14.  Boys were able to enlist as trainee trumpeters, or drivers.  What was his date of birth?

Edited 11 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[MGuest]

 

Frogsmile:- Yes, I dont' know if he did for certain, but as per his medical record above, it states he was 25 years old and had completed 5 years in service.  I have just ordered his birth cert so don't know the full date, but was born in 1890 in Altrincham and presume he joined the army there, if not Forest of Dean Gloucestershire where his father and family are all from.  I know he was in Waterford Barracks and Cahir Tipperary Ireland around 1911 as met by grandmother who then got pregnant in Nov 1911 and they married in Feb 1912. I presume he left Ireland in 1912/1913 to India and then went to war in Belgium/France and then transferred to Royal Engineer 1917 and probably was based in India at Mesopatamia  until 1920s ?

 

Sorry another question:

 

What do you think he and his regiment were doing in Jubbulpore in  1913 ? 

 

Thank you 

 

Martina 

 

 

Edited 11 May , 2021 by MGuest

[FROGSMILE]

On 12/05/2021 at 01:35, MGuest said:

 

Frogsmile:- Yes, I dont' know if he did for certain, but as per his medical record above, it states he was 25 years old and had completed 5 years in service.  I have just ordered his birth cert so don't know the full date, but was born in 1890 in Altrincham and presume he joined the army there, if not Forest of Dean Gloucestershire where his father and family are all from.  I know he was in Waterford Barracks and Cahir Tipperary Ireland around 1911 as met by grandmother who then got pregnant in Nov 1911 and they married in Feb 1912. I presume he left Ireland in 1912/1913 to India and then went to war in Belgium/France and then transferred to Royal Engineer 1917 and probably was based in India at Mesopatamia  until 1920s ?

 

Sorry another question:

 

What do you think he and his regiment were doing in Jubbulpore in  1913 ? 

 

Thank you 

 

Martina 

 

 

 

Thanks Martina, I see now that you say he wasn't 20 in 1914, as I thought you'd said in an earlier post.

 

His battery in Jubbulpore in India in 1913 was simply a part of the permanent garrison there securing British interests in maintaining the Empire in those parts.  It was a peacetime routine of training interspersed with facing up to occasional civil unrest and border insurrections (the latter especially around the North West Frontier where it borders Afghanistan).  Strategically at that time Britain feared a potential invasion by Russia through the border areas there that were seen as a backdoor into India.  As well as the garrison of British-Imperial and British-Indian troops Britain expended considerable effort in espionage via spies and paid informers in those border regions in the hope that forewarning might be given of any hostile action by Russia.  This latter aspect became quite infamous and in its day was euphemised as "The Great Game" (which in those days did not relate to association football).  You can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game

 

 

[George Rayner]

The birth registers which Museumtom has given certainly show that George was in barracks Cahir for the birth of first child August 1912 and in India for second-Johanna?-in August 1913.

 

Were his parents Thomas and Amelia?

 

George