Treatment of Casualties due to Mustard Gas Poisoning

[exXIX]

In my on going search for information about my maternal Grandfather, I am looking for information about the evacuation and clearing of 'Gas Casualties' . Specifically in the sectors around the Ypres/Langemark area' having traced his units approximate positions and the operations on going in the area, I have worked out his probable evac route, from initial point to the RAP, then to the ADS and onto the DADMS, at that point I am having difficulty assessing which CCS he would have gone to. From there i will be able to track the movement from CCS to either Base Hospital or movement to England. The approx date was around the 28-30 Oct 1917, with admission to Graylingwell War Hospital on the 4th November. With such a short time between injury and hospitalisation in the UK I am presuming(as most of this is 'presumption') that the evac route either bypassed the CCS or the Base Hospital. He was obviously serious enough that he wasn't retained 'In theatre' but repatriated directly, he spent 18 days in Graylingwell and then 27 days at 'Summerdown Camp' near Eastbourne before returning to France for duty. It would help me if I could be pointed to documents, treatment methods and evac routes, information. I have a lot of info around 50th Northumbrian Div and it's HQ and Ancillary Units as well as the Batt WD I am having difficulty in tracing the CCS in the area behind Elverdinghe/Poperinghe that would likely be the 'Gassed' receiving CCS. Any help will be much appreciated......

[ss002d6252]

39 minutes ago, exXIX said:

In my on going search for information about my maternal Grandfather, I am looking for information about the evacuation and clearing of 'Gas Casualties' . Specifically in the sectors around the Ypres/Langemark area' having traced his units approximate positions and the operations on going in the area, I have worked out his probable evac route, from initial point to the RAP, then to the ADS and onto the DADMS, at that point I am having difficulty assessing which CCS he would have gone to. From there i will be able to track the movement from CCS to either Base Hospital or movement to England. The approx date was around the 28-30 Oct 1917, with admission to Graylingwell War Hospital on the 4th November. With such a short time between injury and hospitalisation in the UK I am presuming(as most of this is 'presumption') that the evac route either bypassed the CCS or the Base Hospital. He was obviously serious enough that he wasn't retained 'In theatre' but repatriated directly, he spent 18 days in Graylingwell and then 27 days at 'Summerdown Camp' near Eastbourne before returning to France for duty. It would help me if I could be pointed to documents, treatment methods and evac routes, information. I have a lot of info around 50th Northumbrian Div and it's HQ and Ancillary Units as well as the Batt WD I am having difficulty in tracing the CCS in the area behind Elverdinghe/Poperinghe that would likely be the 'Gassed' receiving CCS. Any help will be much appreciated......

Who was he and which unit was he with ?

 

Typically, it was the more minor injuries that were shifted back first, so that the more serious injuries that couldn't be moved or needed more treatment could be dealt with in France before they were stabilised enough to move (as was demonstrated with 50 Div casualties from Ypres in April/May 1915).

 

Sometimes specific CCS were delegated to take specific types of cases but that wasn't always the case.

 

Craig

[yperman]

In 1917 here was a ADS which is also described as a CCS at Vlamertinghe  at the mill on the Ieper to Poperinghe Road.

[TEW]

Unlikely to bypass a CCS or Hospital, they were all part of the process of evacuation. Can't see a wounded man going direct from a dressing station to port and a Hospital Ship, no such transport laid on for such travel.

 

Haven't looked but Remy Siding group sounds the most likely CCS group.

 

Difficult to state which one but may be able to give total numbers admitted to each one on a daily basis which might give a 'most likely' option.

 

Evacuation from Remy by train would include all CCSs there, then on to a Base. Next issue is that just because a train went to EG. Rouen doesn't automatically mean all the wounded went to a base hospital there. I've seen Instances where X number of men were off loaded at a base and split up into groups, some admitted to hospital there while others were put on another train to EG. Boulogne. Or some immediately shipped home.

 

Evacuation from CCS could take place the same day IE. no overnight stay and at a base possibly late at night the same day as wounded (more feasible if wounded early in the day).

 

4-5 days from front line to UK hospital is probably not the shortest duration. It's partly down to the train times, destination, tides, ship availability, wound type. With exceptional luck you could get loaded on a ship within 24 hours of wound, home the next day.

 

Arrive at CCS a little later you could miss that train, tide and ship and not arrive in UK until several days after the man who was on the earlier train.

TEW

[exXIX]

Thanks TEW, I have found that from the position of the Batt HQ at 'Egypt House' the most likely would indeed have been to 'Remy Sidings' down 'Railway Street' along what appears to be a narrow gauge railway. From the CCS WD I have a number of Amb Train numbers the most likely of which went to Rueon. The alternative according to Reports of ADMS 50th div that for the operations in the area the evacuation was Egypt House with an ADS at 'Marsuin Farm' via a ARAP run by 2/2 Northumbrian Field Ambulance. From map sheet 28 C.8b.7.3, it's at that point I lose the trail. What I am looking for are casualty lists for the various Amb Trains and CSS'. Alternatively.......the RAP was at 'Cuckoo Reserve' with the ADS at 'Heninel, it's all quite confusing and I am trying to use logic, (something absent from the British Army I have experienced) to work out a trail, thanks for your comments though, much appreciated.

[TEW]

I assume he's 50th Division, can you give a battalion? They sometimes have a left & right sector ADS which can evac to the same MDS by different methods or by different routes day/night.

 

No chance of getting a tighter date of injury? May or may not make much difference as to the route only the evac from CCS and trains etc.

 

Even if you have a date of injury there's still variables EG. two ambulance trains leaving Remy for different destinations on the same day. Over four days you may have eight ish trains.

TEW

[exXIX]

Hi TEW, he was 5th Batt. Yorkshire Regt. On the 29-30th October, 150th Bde reported heavy shelling on the left sector of the line, which is where B & D coy where in the front line, 23933 Spenceley GW was with A Coy in the reserve trenches. I have the location on sheet 28 from the NLS website and have the ADMS report for the Div a map included gave the routes for evacuation and the various posts up to the DMDS which I think was around Elverdinghe, from these records he may have gone to Remy Sidings where 10,17 CCS were located. Is there any way of finding lists of admissions to CCS's?...  

[exXIX]

An 'operation' was carried out by the 4th East Yorks on the 29/30th Oct to 'straighten' the line, it appears to have failed and part of the German reaction was to shell the area, probably to break up any further attacks. Was it usual to vary the type of shells to include 'Yellow Cross' Mustard shells in these barrages?...

[exXIX]

3 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Who was he and which unit was he with ?

 

Typically, it was the more minor injuries that were shifted back first, so that the more serious injuries that couldn't be moved or needed more treatment could be dealt with in France before they were stabilised enough to move (as was demonstrated with 50 Div casualties from Ypres in April/May 1915).

 

Sometimes specific CCS were delegated to take specific types of cases but that wasn't always the case.

 

Craig

23933 Spenceley GW 5th Batt. Yorkshire Regiment. Part of 150th Bde. 50th Northumbrian Div. according to war diaries they were positioned around Egypt House on sheet 28 trench map...

2 minutes ago, exXIX said:

An 'operation' was carried out by the 4th East Yorks on the 29/30th Oct to 'straighten' the line, it appears to have failed and part of the German reaction was to shell the area, probably to break up any further attacks. Was it usual to vary the type of shells to include 'Yellow Cross' Mustard shells in these barrages?...

Sheet 28, grid ref. V.1.c.6.4 to U.6.b.5.4....

[Gareth Davies]

In the interest of accuracy it is worth remembering that mustard isn't a gas and that in the main it didn't poison people.

[AOK4]

Treatment of Yperite casualties required special attention and was not without danger for the nurses and doctors. The German army had special aid posts for poison gas casualties (keeping them in closed rooms would only make matters worse to start with). Didn't the British also have a separate treatment/line of evacuation of this kind of wounded?

[ss002d6252]

To be fair, the official medical history uses the term 'Mustard Gas' so I think it's a safe term to use for these purposes.

 

CCS' and aid posts started to be trained to undertake initial decontamination by stripping patients in the open air and then washing them down to try and neutralise the effects of the Mustard gas as best as possible.
 

Craig

[Gareth Davies]

It may well use it but it won't turn mustard into a gas.

[TEW]

Trying to find details in the DDMS VI diary. 50th Division relieved from the line by 51st Division 6/10/17. Not seeing the return of 50th division during October. Maybe they moved Corps.

 

I'm seeing some 32 CCS staff being sent to 64 CCS at Elverdinghe late Oct.

TEW

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, TEW said:

Trying to find details in the DDMS VI diary. 50th Division relieved from the line by 51st Division 6/10/17. Not seeing the return of 50th division during October. Maybe they moved Corps.

 

I'm seeing some 32 CCS staff being sent to 64 CCS at Elverdinghe late Oct.

TEW

50 Div spent a couple of weeks out of the line but were then transferred to 5th Army.

 

Craig

[TEW]

Thanks Craig, I'm seeing X Corps given in the OOB for Nov 17 but no mention in that diary for 50th Division late Oct.

 

Don't suppose you have a Corps for 50th Division last week of Oct?

 

Incidently, one of the corps diaries mentions treatment for the gassed. Strip off and washed down outside then apply a solution of bicarbonate of soda. RAMC were greasing themselves as skin protection. AFAIK oxygen was the only medical treatment.

TEW

[ss002d6252]

20 minutes ago, TEW said:

Thanks Craig, I'm seeing X Corps given in the OOB for Nov 17 but no mention in that diary for 50th Division late Oct.

 

Don't suppose you have a Corps for 50th Division last week of Oct?

 

Incidently, one of the corps diaries mentions treatment for the gassed. Strip off and washed down outside then apply a solution of bicarbonate of soda. RAMC were greasing themselves as skin protection. AFAIK oxygen was the only medical treatment.

TEW

They swapped corps relatively quickly - to 2 Corps on 18 Oct 1917 and then on to 14 Corps on 20 Oct 1917.

Craig

[charlie2]

You may want to read chapter XVI in Volume 2 of Diseases of the War - part of the Medical Services OH. https://archive.org/details/medicalservicesd02macp/page/494/mode/2up

 

Charlie

[exXIX]

18 hours ago, Gareth Davies said:

In the interest of accuracy it is worth remembering that mustard isn't a gas and that in the main it didn't poison people.

That's right it was a liquid dilivered in a way that it formed an aerosol and was extremely persistent, as it is today. I remember my CRB training from the 80's and how debilitating it was wearing NBC suits. and masks. for extended periods. It must have been ghastly knowing that the battle space was contaminated and living in it without the modern equipment we now have...

15 hours ago, charlie2 said:

You may want to read chapter XVI in Volume 2 of Diseases of the War - part of the Medical Services OH. https://archive.org/details/medicalservicesd02macp/page/494/mode/2up

 

Charlie

Thanks for the pointer to that, I have found lots of publications on archive.org before and it's amazingly. a free resource with the ability to download and borrow items...

[exXIX]

17 hours ago, TEW said:

Trying to find details in the DDMS VI diary. 50th Division relieved from the line by 51st Division 6/10/17. Not seeing the return of 50th division during October. Maybe they moved Corps.

 

I'm seeing some 32 CCS staff being sent to 64 CCS at Elverdinghe late Oct.

TEW

They moved into Div reserve in Nov 1917 I recall, by then my grandfather was in UK hospital so haven't delved much deeper... 

[exXIX]

On 12/04/2021 at 04:07, TEW said:

Thanks Craig, I'm seeing X Corps given in the OOB for Nov 17 but no mention in that diary for 50th Division late Oct.

 

Don't suppose you have a Corps for 50th Division last week of Oct?

 

Incidently, one of the corps diaries mentions treatment for the gassed. Strip off and washed down outside then apply a solution of bicarbonate of soda. RAMC were greasing themselves as skin protection. AFAIK oxygen was the only medical treatment.

TEW

I have just been wading through ADMS 50th Div reports and came across this interesting tidbit, dated 23rd October 1917. I think it contains the answers for me. Viz 4,47 and 61 CCS at Dozinghem was the evacuation point for further travel. Need to find which Amb Trainns were using them...

 

[TEW]

I'm looking right now at WO95/918/2. DDMS for XIV Corps. Appendices for Oct are all over the place. Some are muddled with August appendices.

There are locations for medical units last week of October which includes Northumbrian FAs.

 

Relevant to 50th Division starts on page 71.

 

The handwritten part is awful. Can I suggest you download it and see if it has what you're looking for.

 

They are running some experimental methods which include the newly created light railway plus there is mention of a newly created Divisional Stretcher Bearer company.

 

They came out of the line 29/10/17 which should tighten up a date.

TEW

[TEW]

Now seeing orders similar to yours in 5th Army DMS. Dated 11/10/17 & 12/11/17, almost identical but the both say 'All gas cases to Mendinghem 12, 46 & 64'

 

But also, 'All wounded using ambulance cars to Dozinghem' 4, 47 & 61. 

TEW

[exXIX]

1 minute ago, TEW said:

Now seeing orders similar to yours in 5th Army DMS. Dated 11/10/17 & 12/11/17, almost identical but the both say 'All gas cases to Mendinghem 12, 46 & 64'

 

But also, 'All wounded using ambulance cars to Dozinghem' 4, 47 & 61. 

TEW

Yes it's quite confusing and exhausting, just found in refs from 4 CCS gas cases loaded on 14 Amb Train direct to Boulogne on the 31/10/1917. Going to pursue this line and see where it leads, need to look up UK Amb trains now!!

[TEW]

ATs # 14,15,16 & 36 evacuated from Mendinghem group. 14 twice in the possible time frame. Once to Dannes-Camiers and later to Rouen.

#14 arrived Calais 28/10/17, three ships left later that day

#15 arrived Calais 29/10/17, three hospital ships left same day

 

No mention of ATs in the other diaries.

 

Rouen Base.

Has #27 arriving from Dozinghem 30/10/17 & #14 31/10/17.

NB They also have ATs leaving Rouen with wounded for other bases for this period. Plus two hospital ships leaving.

 

#33 from Mendinghem arriving 1/11/17.

 

I'm seeing about 11 ships that left Le Havre for period.

 

Needles & Haystacks!

TEW