RSM with Hampshire Yeomanry? badge ID?

[battiscombe]

I have a photo of what appear to be Hampshire Yeomanry NCOs [rather than 6th DG Carabiniers.. who have a very similar badge - but these look to have the  HANTS CARABINIERS shoulder titles..] but note that this RSM has differerent badging - can anyone identify? I have added some more faces in a second image in case of interest ..

thanks

Edited 5 April , 2021 by battiscombe
add image

[FROGSMILE]

14 hours ago, battiscombe said:

I have a photo of what appear to be Hampshire Yeomanry NCOs [rather than 6th DG Carabiniers.. who have a very similar badge - but these look to have the  HANTS CARABINIERS shoulder titles..] but note that this RSM has differerent badging - can anyone identify? I have added some more faces in a second image in case of interest ..

thanks

 

Having spent quite a few hours trying to find an ID for the cap and collar badges worn by the WOI with pale coloured shirt, dark tie, and large woven coat of arms rank badge, I’m left baffled and not a little perplexed.  Not only can I not find it anywhere in numerous books covering common and arcane insignia, but I’ve never seen it before. There are one or two VTC badges vaguely similar, and its shape reminds me a little of the Dublin Regiment of (Nationalist) Irish Volunteers, but it’s not quite right for any of those.  It looks a little like a very large rose superimposed on a wheel, but it’s nothing like the Hampshire Cyclists badge.

 
I’d be interested to learn what @CorporalPunishment, @Dragoonand @Michelle Youngcan make of it?  There’s another WOI slightly further to the right with a small metal badge of rank and equally small cap badge whose unit is also a little difficult to discern (perhaps Shropshire or Devon Yeomanry?).  The Hussar style plain buttons might offer a clue.
It’s relatively unusual to see WOsI wearing an open stepped rever tunic with shirt collar and tie, and seems to have been favoured by only a few, usually mounted units (including also the ASC).  This is a most intriguing inquiry battiscombe.

Edited 6 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

Could it be an Indian Cavalry Regiment? A shot in the dark really 

[FROGSMILE]

55 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Could it be an Indian Cavalry Regiment? A shot in the dark really 

Yes that’s a really good idea Michelle and certainly a possibility I hadn’t considered.  The only thing I’m unsure about is whether Indian regiments still had European RSMs as well as RQMS.  They certainly did for a long time, but they were eventually phased out.  I’ll see what I can find in COX’s Military Badges, which covers the Empire’s dominion and colonial unit insignia.

Edited 6 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

Can't see it as Indian. One that crossed my mind was PPCLI, but unconvinced.

[FROGSMILE]

There’s some similarities with Canadian Army Veterinary Corps and one can imagine an attachment to Yeomanry.  There was a shortage of home grown Vets and specialists included WOs as well as commissioned officers.  I’m not sure of the central motif though.

 

39 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Can't see it as Indian. One that crossed my mind was PPCLI, but unconvinced.

Yes the pipers wore a similarly shaped badge Steven, but a PPCLI attachment is unlikely I think.

 

NB.  I’ve been through COX’s to cover badges of India (and satellites), Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and the West Indies, and nothing comes closer than the Canadian AVC, but I don’t think that’s it

Edited 6 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

Something about the badges worn by the RSM says North Somerset Yeomanry, ten-pointed stars and all that. However, I would assume as the RSM he would be Regular Army on the Permanent Staff but to my eyes that is no Regular Army badge that I recognise. Something that I find unusual is his lack of medal ribbons, given his rank and his age, presumably about 40-ish, I would expect to see a ribbon or two, certainly a long service one at least.   Pete.

[Alan24]

15 hours ago, battiscombe said:

I have added some more faces in a second image in case of interest ..

I'm wondering if the Lt.Col. in your picture could be the same man named Capt. Granville in this 1907 Summer Camp photo?

Whilst the card says HCIY, Capt. Granville is actually wearing the badges of the 3rd Kings Own Hussars in the 1907 picture. 

 

[Gunner Hall]

He looks very young to be an RSM. Which may be the reason for the relatively "modern" RSM Dress, as mentioned by Frogsmile.  The lack of medals,  didn't phase me, (None of the other men have them up.)  lack of a moustache, however....did.  Strange.

 

 

Edited 6 April , 2021 by Gunner Hall

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Something about the badges worn by the RSM says North Somerset Yeomanry, ten-pointed stars and all that. However, I would assume as the RSM he would be Regular Army on the Permanent Staff but to my eyes that is no Regular Army badge that I recognise. Something that I find unusual is his lack of medal ribbons, given his rank and his age, presumably about 40-ish, I would expect to see a ribbon or two, certainly a long service one at least.   Pete.

The absence of medals on someone of that vintage doesn’t sit right with a WO from a combat arm if he’s a regular I agree.  I’m absolutely baffled that the cap badge is wholly unrecognisable.  Perhaps it’s one of those units where the officers and the RSM wore a completely different badge to the other ranks, but even so I’d expect to have seen it at some point.  There’s something very odd going on.

Edited 6 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The absence of medals on someone of that vintage doesn’t sit right with a WO from a combat arm if he’s a regular I agree.  I’m absolutely baffled that the cap badge is wholly unrecognisable.  Perhaps it’s one of those units where the officers and the RSM wore a completely different badge to the other ranks, but even so I’d expect to have seen it at some point.  There’s something very odd going on.

Frogsmile, do you think the circular part of the badge could be a cloth backing to the central part?. Admittedly it does look more like metal to me but I've got ten-pointed stars on the brain.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Frogsmile, do you think the circular part of the badge could be a cloth backing to the central part?. Admittedly it does look more like metal to me but I've got ten-pointed stars on the brain.   Pete.

After squinting at it that seems a very good thought and it’s not impossible as the whole of the cap insignia has a matte appearance, but it would have to square with the collar badges and the cloth/metal aspect there seems less apparent/ likely.m

 

NB.  If it’s the Somerset Yeomanry ‘style’ then we need to see it on another Officer/ WO of that period.

Edited 6 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

After squinting at it that seems a very good thought and it’s not impossible as the whole of the cap insignia has a matte appearance, but it would have to square with the collar badges and the cloth/metal aspect there seems less apparent/ likely.m

 

NB.  If it’s the Somerset Yeomanry ‘style’ then we need to see it on another Officer/ WO of that period.

I have almost convinced myself that the collar badges are North Somerset Yeomanry officer pattern with title scroll, still have doubts though.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I have almost convinced myself that the collar badges are North Somerset Yeomanry officer pattern with title scroll, still have doubts though.   Pete.

Brilliant Pete, you’ve only gone and cracked it you star you!  It was indeed one of those idiosyncrasies where the officers and RSM wore different insignia. In this case the North Somerset’s officers wore a circular rosette behind the cap badge and collar badges.  It seems that they then dropped the rosette and added the title scroll to the cap badge to match the collars instead.
 

Edited 6 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

3 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 One that crossed my mind was PPCLI, but unconvinced.

 

Its not the PPCLI Marguerite cap badge, far too large.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

Its not the PPCLI Marguerite cap badge, far too large.

 

Yes we’d already ruled that out much earlier in the thread Bryan.

[Alan24]

An example from the same Regt.

 

[FROGSMILE]

Excellent photo Alan, thank you for posting it.  The earlier badge was distinctive as it had no crown at top.  There then seems to have been a version with crown, then another with crown and title scroll.  It’s intriguing that our subject RSM is still wearing the badge, near to the end of the war, seemingly several years after it was obsolescent.  The later pattern was voided so that coloured cloth could show from behind it.

NB.  The badge without crown must be as rare as hen’s teeth.  I’ve not been able to find a single image of a real one, both online and in collectors books.  The felt backing seems to have been in the regiment’s bright blue facing colour.  The enclosed old comrades lapel pin is the closest I’ve been able to find.

Afternote: image of newly discovered badge added on 7th Jan 2024. 

 

Edited 8 January by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

That's great, another mystery solved.     Pete.

[RNCVR]

54 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes we’d already ruled that out much earlier in the thread Bryan.

 

Apologies, missed it, very pleased the mystery has been solved tho!

Learned a lot reading these cap badge ID's.

Edited 6 April , 2021 by RNCVR

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

That's great, another mystery solved.     Pete.

You solved it Pete, that was an exceptional spot.  Kudos!  I wish I could find an image of the badge, there can’t have been very many of them made and only the officers from the initial mobilisation are seen wearing them.  All the portraits of officers in the IWM photographic archive seem to show the later badge.

Edited 6 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

42 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

You solved it Pete, that was an exceptional spot.  Kudos!  I wish I could find an image of the badge, there can’t have been very many of them made and only the officers from the initial mobilisation are seen wearing them.  All the portraits of officers in the IWM photographic archive seem to show the later badge.

Frogsmile, I think the large round badges are actually the pre-1908 NSIY pattern.   Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Frogsmile, I think the large round badges are actually the pre-1908 NSIY pattern.   Pete.

That would make complete sense, so the question is are the portrait photos of the officers KIA taken from before the war, or did they deploy in 1914 still wearing the old badges.  For the RSM to be still wearing one in 1918 would suggest so. The badge seems to have been peculiar to service dress at first, because Edward VII badges exist for the post 1908 pattern with crown atop so the two types were concurrent.

Edited 6 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[battiscombe]

N Somerset Yeomanry makes sense - thanks for that! My current thinking is the photo seems likely to be 1916 ... Also interesting having the collar badges also.. Thanks all.. I had drawn complete blank on the badge ..

 

I see that a RSM F(rederick?) A Goodman had been in France in early June 1915 with 1/1 NSYeo when was wounded in the thigh, as a Sgt.... and had gone to France as a Cpl..

their original RSM was one Wm Shakespeare has been in South Africa with 11th Hussars so might be expected to be wearing his SAfr medals.. and is listed on 1914 Star roll as Permanent Staff from 18th Hussars.. and later commissioned

 

Edited 6 April , 2021 by battiscombe

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, battiscombe said:

N Somerset Yeomanry makes sense - thanks for that! My current thinking is the photo seems likely to be 1916 ... Also interesting having the collar badges also.. Thanks all.. I had drawn complete blank on the badge ..

 

I see that a RSM F(rederick?) A Goodman had been in France in early June 1915 with 1/1 NSYeo when was wounded in the thigh, as a Sgt.... and had gone to France as a Cpl..

their original RSM was one Wm Shakespeare has been in South Africa with 11th Hussars so might be expected to be wearing his SAfr medals.. and is listed on 1914 Star roll as Permanent Staff from 18th Hussars.. and later commissioned

 

Yes, 1916 seems possible, the new badges of rank seen in the photo were introduced in 1915, and the medal ribbons all seem to be from earlier campaigns than WW1.  One of the sergeants is a qualified Maxim/Vickers machine gun instructor.