14th btn Northumberland Fusiliers

[RaySearching]

29 minutes ago, Hannah West said:

Ray - thank you for the link - though Ive been using the library version of Ancestry as I get free access to that in lockdown

 

Ok  just go to UK world war 1 service medal and award rolls 1914-1920 if available  in the library version   

type in Whitehead  (in last name) and 641817 (in regiment  number)   should fetch up the roll in question ,if access is available in the Library version 

although as Frogsmile has previously stated the roll wont tell you anything more than he was awarded the BWM and VM 

his 1914-15 star is on a separate roll 

 

Ray

 

 

[Hannah West]

Ha - great minds think alike there M and Frog! Means this one is a must. I take it it's not by Clive Dunn of Dad's Army 

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Hannah West said:

Ha - great minds think alike there M and Frog! Means this one is a must. I take it it's not by Clive Dunn of Dad's Army 

No not Clive Dunn (smile) but the Regimental Medical Officer of the battalion, a much respected man and rightly so.  He made it his personal mission to write a truthful and accurate account as a counter foil to those, like Graves, who had written with more mercenary motives.

Edited 28 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Hannah West]

6 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

 

Ok  just go to UK world war 1 service medal and award rolls 1914-1920 if available  in the library version   

type in Whitehead  (in last name) and 641817 (in regiment  number)   should fetch up the roll in question ,if access is available in the Library version 

although as Frogsmile has previously stated the roll wont tell you anything more than he was awarded the BWM and VM 

his 1914-15 star is on a separate roll 

 

Ray

 

 

Thank you Ray - Ive found it! But yeah - it tells me nothing  

[Hannah West]

HI all, 

I have a couple more queries to put to you if that's ok. The date recorded as Arthurs discharge to Class Z Reserve, is 18.2.1919. My dad, although he was only 6 when Arthur died, thinks that he wasn't away for very long at all until he had to return home because of injury caused by gas inhalation. We both presumed that this date of Feb 1919 was just when he was signed off officially because the war was over. Any thoughts on this please? 

 

If Arthur was in active service until this date - does this mean he was probably at all the battles the 14th Bn Fusileers were involved with?

 

If he was injured for a time and then went back - is there any way of finding this out?

 

Many thanks

Hannah

[ss002d6252]

10 minutes ago, Hannah West said:

HI all, 

I have a couple more queries to put to you if that's ok. The date recorded as Arthurs discharge to Class Z Reserve, is 18.2.1919. My dad, although he was only 6 when Arthur died, thinks that he wasn't away for very long at all until he had to return home because of injury caused by gas inhalation. We both presumed that this date of Feb 1919 was just when he was signed off officially because the war was over. Any thoughts on this please? 

 

If Arthur was in active service until this date - does this mean he was probably at all the battles the 14th Bn Fusileers were involved with?

 

If he was injured for a time and then went back - is there any way of finding this out?

 

Many thanks

Hannah

 

Class Z was a form of demobilisation. It was a list of men who could, if need be, be recalled by the army if the armistice broke down.

 

Craig

[FROGSMILE]

Hannah we know from the medal index card you posted and other posts in this thread that he served in the Labour Corps after the Northumberland Fusiliers.  Such a move was very common after an infantryman was wounded or injured and no longer fit enough for the rigours of prolonged frontline combat.  Men in the Labour Corps usually worked behind the front line, although they still occasionally became casualties from artillery fire and on occasions when German offensives broke through the line and penetrated into the rear areas.  There were also Labour Corps units formed from even more profoundly weakened men who worked in the UK only, supporting the war effort in a variety of ways with physical labour (harvesting etc).  We would need to know what type of Labour Corps unit your great grandfather served with to learn whether he continued to serve in France and Flanders or perhaps served just at home until after the war.  The fact that he was discharged to class z of the Reserve suggests to me that he was probably with a Labour Corps unit still in France, but without linking his Labour Corps serial number to a particular unit that can only be conjecture.

Edited 29 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Looking at his Labour Corps number 641817, the book No Labour no Battle (about the Labour Corps) shows that number as falling within the span 63601 - 64200, which relates to a Labour Corps unit originally formed from the 37th Battalion Royal Fusiliers.  This battalion had been one formed as an infantry Labour Battalion from men of lower medical grade who were then transferred en masse into the Labour Corps when it was formed in May 1917.  It confirms that they served overseas.  The book also states that a man whose number sits within the series between 622800 and 649400 joined the Labour Corps between July and September 1918.  You would need to factor in that he was gassed and so subsequently would have needed to receive treatment and recover for a period before that, but it does suggest that he spent the majority of his service with 14th Bn NF.  Reading between the lines I would speculate that he was probably gassed during the German Spring offensive in March 1918, when a great deal of gas shelling took place, and then after gassing was downgraded and subsequently sent to the Labour Corps as explained.  However, bear in mind that it’s not impossible that he might have been affected earlier, during actions in 1917, and then after a lengthier period of recovery followed the same course mentioned.

Edited 29 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Hannah West]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Looking at his Labour Corps number 641817, the book No Labour no Battle (about the Labour Corps) shows that number as falling within the span 63601 - 64200, which relates to a Labour Corps unit originally formed from the 37th Battalion Royal Fusiliers.  This battalion had been one formed as an infantry Labour Battalion from men of lower medical grade who were then transferred en masse into the Labour Corps when it was formed in May 1917.  It confirms that they served overseas.

Wow, that's a great help, thank you for looking that up for me. I ordered that book yesterday but it won't come for ages - and I'm very impatient - like to crack on! Looking forward to reading more about this. My dad will be very interested to hear these details, thank you.

[Hannah West]

33 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

 

Class Z was a form of demobilisation. It was a list of men who could, if need be, be recalled by the army if the armistice broke down.

 

Craig

Hi Craig, many thanks for the explanation. 

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Hannah West said:

Wow, that's a great help, thank you for looking that up for me. I ordered that book yesterday but it won't come for ages - and I'm very impatient - like to crack on! Looking forward to reading more about this. My dad will be very interested to hear these details, thank you.

I’m glad to help Hannah but recommend that you read through this thread again from the beginning, as you have occasionally received the same information a few times (e.g. about class z Reserve) from various posters.  In particular I would refer you to the recommendation by forum member HERITAGE PLUS about how to access the 14th Bn NF “war diaries” that would tell you what the battalion was doing and when, and give you a chance to understand perhaps how your great grandfather might have been injured.

Edited 29 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Hannah West]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m glad to help Hannah but recommend that you read through this thread again from the beginning as you have occasionally received the same information a few times (e.g. about class z Reserve).  In particular I would refer you to the recommendation by Steven Broomfield about how to access the 14th Bn NF “war diaries” that would tell you what the battalion was doing and when, and give you a chance to understand perhaps how your great grandfather might have been affected.

HI, yes I know there are repeats, I just wanted to thank everyone anyway. I downloaded the diary yesterday and will be wading through it but perhaps it's best to wait until Ive had a look at the book you just mentioned, to get an idea of where Arthur might have been. I would like to understand what it means to be in the LC - does this mean he was still attached to the 14th bn? I've only just clocked that he was part of 21st Division. I am very new to all this war stuff! Totally ignored all war history at school!

[FROGSMILE]

On 29/03/2021 at 10:55, Hannah West said:

HI, yes I know there are repeats, I just wanted to thank everyone anyway. I downloaded the diary yesterday and will be wading through it but perhaps it's best to wait until Ive had a look at the book you just mentioned, to get an idea of where Arthur might have been. I would like to understand what it means to be in the LC - does this mean he was still attached to the 14th bn? I've only just clocked that he was part of 21st Division. I am very new to all this war stuff! Totally ignored all war history at school!

No the Labour Corps were an entirely different unit in the Army to the infantry.  The Northumberland Fusiliers were a regiment within the infantry, and the infantry did the actual hand to hand fighting, supported by the artillery and sometimes the cavalry (who were more manoeuvrable).  
 

The Labour Corps were a support corps that carried out important Labour in the rear areas such as road, rail and trench repair, unloading and loading stores, and supporting headquarters, storage dumps and training schools with administrative personnel.  
 

Divisions were ‘formations’ (tactical groupings) of fighting elements formed from Brigades of infantry or cavalry supported by artillery.  The Divisions then formed individual parts of a Corps, and then there were several Corps (again of tactical construct) in an Army.  
 

You implied that you enjoy reading and I would recommend that you look at the adjunct to this website, the ‘longlongtrail’, where all this is explained in an easy to understand way: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/

Edited 5 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Mk VII]

If his health was permanently impaired he might have made a claim for a pension, and there are sometime records remaining related to that. 

[Hannah West]

HI Mk VII - Yes , I have his pension records, but thank you anyway.

 

[Hannah West]

Can I just ask - having looked at the No Labour, No Battle book - and regarding the British W and Victory Roll record I have for Arthur - is it reasonable to suppose that the hand written numbers at the top: 301 & 266 might relate to the Reserve Labour Company and Area Employment Company relevant to the Labour Corps soldiers listed on this page? Additionally given Arthurs demobilisation date is 18th Feb 1919, which seems to correspond with the time that many Area Employment Companies were demobilised? What are your thoughts on this please? Possible or nonsense?!

 

Many thanks

Hannah

[kenf48]

The numbers 301 & 266 refer to the Army Orders granting the entitlement to the medals.

A.O. 266 of 1919 authorised the award of the BWM

A.O.301 of 1919 authorised the Victory Medal

[Don Regiano]

On 29/03/2021 at 10:27, FROGSMILE said:

his Labour Corps number 641817 .........  falling within the span 63601 - 64200

I'm not trying to be funny here and it doesn't impact on the thrust of this research, but am I missing something here?  I haven't interpreted that number sequencing to apply to six-figure numbers.  If it does, I need to back to some of the research I've done about labour corps guys (not that I'm an expert on them)

 

I would, however, agree with this:

 

On 29/03/2021 at 10:27, FROGSMILE said:

number sits within the series between 622800 and 649400 joined the Labour Corps between July and September 1918

 

Edited 4 April , 2021 by Don Regiano

[kenf48]

On 29/03/2021 at 10:27, FROGSMILE said:

Looking at his Labour Corps number 641817, the book No Labour no Battle (about the Labour Corps) shows that number as falling within the span 63601 - 64200, which relates to a Labour Corps unit originally formed from the 37th Battalion Royal Fusiliers.  

?

641817 - 6 Digits 

63601 - 64200 5 Digits

 

On 29/03/2021 at 10:27, FROGSMILE said:

  The book also states that a man whose number sits within the series between 622800 and 649400 joined the Labour Corps between July and September 1918.  

 

641818 Chenneour served with 366 Area Reserve Employment Company does not mean 641817 did too, other numbers indicate most men transferred at this time remained on Home Service until the Armistice although some returned to France after the Armistice.

641767 transferred to LC 13. 8. 1918 (Scotland Labour Centre)

641798 transferred to LC 25.7. 1918 (London Labour Centre)

 

 

 

 

 

[Hannah West]

Thanks all for your replies - I thought that seemed a bit too easy!!

 

The info about where 641818 served, and others transferring to the labour Corps around the same time remaining on Home Service is interesting. That's not something Ive come across in the book - is that where that piece of info is from? 

 

Very many thanks

Hannah

 

 

[kenf48]

9 hours ago, Hannah West said:

 

 

The info about where 641818 served, and others transferring to the labour Corps around the same time remaining on Home Service is interesting. That's not something Ive come across in the book - is that where that piece of info is from? 

 

 

 

 

It is derived from surviving service records, or the fragments that have survived.  We cannot make assumptions from LC records in the same way as the Infantry where men generally moved around in ‘blocks’ however we can get a rough idea of transfer into the LC and from there men were posted where needed, this could be anywhere within the Corps.

 

Rather a late comer to this thread but it does not appear that anyone has mentioned the 14th NF were a Pioneer Battalion.

As a matter of interest 94% of their dead are recorded on the Soissons Memorial, in other words they incurred their highest losses in the battles at Chemin des Dames in May 1918.  It may be he was gassed/traumatised during that campaign.

Pioneer Battalions were not usually deployed in the front line but were expected to fight, and many suffered heavy losses, especially in the battles of Spring 1918.

 

That’s another one for your reading list ‘Pioneer Battalions in the Great War’ K.W.Mitchinson

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Don Regiano said:

I'm not trying to be funny here and it doesn't impact on the thrust of this research, but am I missing something here?  I haven't interpreted that number sequencing to apply to six-figure numbers.  If it does, I need to back to some of the research I've done about labour corps guys (not that I'm an expert on them)

 

I would, however, agree with this:

 

 

Yes, I’m afraid I’ve got my wires crossed there Dom.  Bizarrely my eyes were seeing 6-digits rather than the actual 5 that were there.

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

?

641817 - 6 Digits 

63601 - 64200 5 Digits

 

 

641818 Chenneour served with 366 Area Reserve Employment Company does not mean 641817 did too, other numbers indicate most men transferred at this time remained on Home Service until the Armistice although some returned to France after the Armistice.

641767 transferred to LC 13. 8. 1918 (Scotland Labour Centre)

641798 transferred to LC 25.7. 1918 (London Labour Centre)

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you Ken.  Mea culpa, I shall stay out of the number sequences in future.

 

@Hannah West: my apologies for the confusion with the numbering sequence, I’m glad that you have the book yourself now. 

Edited 5 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, kenf48 said:

battles at Chenin les Dames in May 1918.  It may be he was gassed/traumatised during that campaign.

Pioneer Battalions were not usually deployed in the front line but were expected to fight, and many suffered heavy losses, especially in the battles of Spring 1918.

 

That’s another one for your reading list ‘Pioneer Battalions in the Great War’ K.W.Mitchinson

 

 

I would just like to second that, as I recall reading years ago accounts of some pioneer battalions fighting hard to stem the German breakthrough following the German Spring Offensive.  Although not intended for an offensive role, it was as you suggest always envisaged that the pioneer battalions would fight and in preparation for one of their roles, to consolidate and reverse face captured trench lines, in 1917 they were equipped with double the usual number of Lewis Guns per battalion.  It seems that the extra firepower that the pioneer battalions were endowed with played a vital role during the subsequent events of 1918.

 

 

Edited 5 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Hannah West]

Really interesting, thank you. I didn't know what a Pioneer Battalion was - actually I assumed it was just a name given with historic reasons and didn't mean anything more in practice.

 

The other piece of information I have towards working out where Arthur was, is that he must have been home around Oct 1916 because my nana was born on 16th July 1917. Maybe he was just home on leave at this point, rather than incapacitated. It was my dad saying 'he wasn't there long - he breathed in gas and it affected him the rest of his life'. I put these two together and guessed he was injured at Loos. His pension card says he is 30% disabled in 1920. Do you think he would have been enlisted to the Labour Corps in 1918 if he was already 30%+ disabled? 

 

Many thanks for your thoughts

Hannah