Captain Pilkington K.O.R.L ID BE GRATEFUL FOR ANY INFO

[arantxa]

Hello

id be grateful for any info on the above chap

Thank you

[arantxa]

i think he is  S.V.Pilkington

[Matlock1418]

5 minutes ago, arantxa said:

i think he is  S.V.Pilkington

What have you got/found already?

Please try looking in the London Gazette

:-) M

[arantxa]

i will try that,,i hadnt really found anything i just tried Ancestry

Thanks

[arantxa]

[arantxa]

Sydney Verden Pilkington

 

[arantxa]

Hes in the regt records  name Sydney Victor on Ancestry Sydney Verden but no index card nothing at all like he doesnt exist

[Ivor Anderson]

Appointed T/Lt. in London Gazette 8 May 1916: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29571/supplement/4540

He was a student teacher on the 1911 census. He may have had a training role at home, so no MIC or medal roll.

Also with Royal Lancaster Regiment - LG 28 October 1916: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29806/supplement/10500

Acting Capt. from Dec. 1916: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29883/page/12669

Relinquishes his commission from 6 Nov 1920, retains rank of Capt.: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32115/supplement/10824

Was with Trg. (Training?) Reserve (R Lanc. R) 10 July 1918: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30788/supplement/8135

Born 1895. Married Q4 1917. Died Barbados 10 December 1924.

Edited 27 March , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[Matlock1418]

19 minutes ago, arantxa said:

all like he doesnt exist

He did exist - the LG is leading the way here today:

 

Service Battalions

The King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) 
Temporary Second Lieutenant Sydney V. Pilkington, from a Reserve Battalion, to be temporary Second Lieutenant. Dated 26th August, 1915.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29283/page/8730

The King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) ... 

The undermentioned temporary Second Lieutenants to be temporary Lieutenants: — Dated 1st January, 1916. ... Sydney V. Pilkington

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29483/page/1953

 

Still looking for an earlier LG entry [prior to the first one given above here] - as from a Reserve Bn as already a 2 Lt

?? Any clarification on his second forename ?? [as full Forename(s) and Surname usually used for initial commission]

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

29 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Born 1895

 

4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

?? Any clarification on his second forename ??

Potentially answered my own question I think

GRO have this:

Name:                                                            Mother's Maiden Surname: 

PILKINGTON, SIDNEY  VERDEN                     VERDEN  

GRO Reference: 1895  D Quarter in LANCASTER  Volume 08E  Page 714

:-) M

 

Edit; Bingo!

The King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment). 10th Battalion— Sydney Verden Pilkington to be temporary Second Lieutenant. Dated 14th August, 1915.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29270/supplement/8361

Edited 27 March , 2021 by Matlock1418
Edit

[PRC]

11 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Appointed T/Lt. in London Gazette 8 May 1916: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29571/supplement/4540

 

Entry shows him appointed to the 2nd Reserve from a Service Battalion from the 3rd April 1916 but with a seniority from the 1st January 1916. He was already a Temporary Lieutenant.

 

In the July 1916 Monthly Army List he is shown as a Lieutenant with the 12th (Reserve) Battalion. I believe that was the 2nd reserve Service Battalion, but could simply be that the monthly lists haven't caught up yet.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/107092849

 

In September 1916, the 12th (Reserve) Battalion was converted into the 76th Training Reserve Battalion in 17th Reserve Brigade.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/kings-own-royal-lancaster-regiment/

 

Then it goes a bit skewiff.

 

The index for the December 1916 edition says he is listed in column 933f - but there is no column 933f unless it is in the supplement.

The index for the January 1917 edition says he is listed in column 1582c, which is the high 80's battalions of the trainining reserve - but he isn't.

 

The dinner gong has just sounded, so unless you gentlemen can run with it, I shall return later to take another look.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Matlock1418]

Service Papers at the National Archives - You [or another researcher] will need to visit when we are allowed out/in again - not digitised and cannot be downloaded.

Captain Sydney Verden PILKINGTON. The King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment)

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1091244

:-) M

[arantxa]

Thanks 

i couldn’t even find his medal index card 

do you think he went to France in. ww1

 

[PRC]

This man is proving very frustrating

 

I skipped to the November 1918 Monthly Army List looking to work backwards. He was still a Lieutenant with seniority from the 1st January 1916, now attached the 1st & 2nd Battalions – but the relevant column, (928d) is on the right hand page and is the column against the margin on the scan done by the National Library of Scotland, so any additional information is lost.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123098397

 

Actually I suspect I may have missed nothing – he is attached to the same two Battalions on the September 1918 Monthly Army List, and other than the standard asterisk to indicate it is a temporary war time commission, there are no other details.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103474826

 

So trying to fill in the gaps.

 

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Service Battalions

The King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) 
Temporary Second Lieutenant Sydney V. Pilkington, from a Reserve Battalion, to be temporary Second Lieutenant. Dated 26th August, 1915.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29283/page/8730

The King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) ... 

The undermentioned temporary Second Lieutenants to be temporary Lieutenants: — Dated 1st January, 1916. ... Sydney V. Pilkington

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29483/page/1953

 

He does not appear to be listed anywhere in the main British Army Monthly List for August 1915  - where he might be expected to appear if he was already serving.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123048141

 

On the September 1915 Army Monthly list 2nd Lieutenant S.V. Pilkington, (temp), is shown on the establishment of the 10th Battalion with seniority of the 14th August 1915. (Column 932m)

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123011265

 

Which leads us to the entry on page 8361 of the Supplement to the London Gazette, 21 August 1915.

 

The King’s Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment).

10th Battalion –

Sydney Verden Pilkington to be temporary Second Lieutenant. Dated 14th August, 1915.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29270/supplement/8361/data.pdf

 

2 hours ago, PRC said:

The index for the December 1916 edition says he is listed in column 933f - but there is no column 933f unless it is in the supplement.

The index for the January 1917 edition says he is listed in column 1582c, which is the high 80's battalions of the trainining reserve - but he isn't.

 

The index for February, March and April 1917 all show him to be in column 1582c, but it took until April 1917 for me to spot him in column 1582e – the only Lieutenant attached to the 76th Battalion of the Training Reserve, (which was the old 12th Battalion King’s Own – d’oh!). He is shown as Acting Captain with effect from the 1st September 1916.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/104057780

 

He was still with the 76th Training Reserve Battalion on the December 1917 Monthly Army List and serving as an Acting Captain.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103989596

 

While he is still shown on the strength of the 76th Training Reserve Battalion on the April 1918 Monthly Army List, the column header actually says the unit has been disbanded.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/119728598

It looks like the same entries appear in May, June and July 1918 – at least as far as the index goes.

 

The August 1918 Monthly List see him on the attached list for 1st and 2nd Battalion, and there is no longer any reference to him being an acting Captain.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/120463374

 

The September and November 1918 listings I have already described.

 

Nothing to indicate any overseas service.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

 

[arantxa]

Blimey 

that is a very comprehensive investigation you should be CID

thank you so much

[corisande]

9 hours ago, PRC said:

 

He does not appear to be listed anywhere in the main British Army Monthly List for August 1915 

 

I suspect that this is because he was still at school (b1895)

 

 

He appears to have gone to teach in Barbados after WW1 and died there in 1924

 

 

Wikipedia on Harrison College - click

 

I tried & failed to get a newspaper report from Barbados on his death, but with perserverence someone should be able to find one

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[corisande]

1917 married Marjorie S Daysh . She went to Barbados with him, and remarried in Jamaica about 6 months after his death) There appears to have been one son of the marriage

 

1919 Matriculated Mancheser University

 

1922 Aug 31 Sails from UK bound for Barbados. He is a "schoolmaster". His wife and son (aged 3) follow on 16 Nov 1922

 

 

 

Edited 28 March , 2021 by corisande

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

11 hours ago, PRC said:

 

He does not appear to be listed anywhere in the main British Army Monthly List for August 1915 

 

I suspect that this is because he was still at school (b1895)

I suspect probably more a case of the ML not catching his mid-August commissioning.

 

13 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Edit; Bingo!

The King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment). 10th Battalion— Sydney Verden Pilkington to be temporary Second Lieutenant. Dated 14th August, 1915.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29270/supplement/8361

:-) M

[PRC]

On 28/03/2021 at 10:24, Matlock1418 said:

I suspect probably more a case of the ML not catching his mid-August commissioning.

 

The Monthly Lists claim to be accurate up until the end of the previous month but I suspect that is aspirational rather than reality

Apologies for missing that you'd aslready found his original commissionining - I was still working from what turned out to be the second LG entry for August 1915, when effectively he transferred from the 10th to the 12th Battalion. The way that read meant he had already been commissioned, hence why I looked at the August 1915 Monthly List to see if his date of seniority was listed and from that deduce when his original commissioning was gazetted. Now we know he was never going to appear in the August 1915 list.

 

It's just speculation, but would probably tie in with the end of the school year plus the time to process an application for a commission.

 

On 27/03/2021 at 19:11, arantxa said:

 

So unless "anyone" ( @Matlock1418 can find a subsequent entry in the London Gazette bumping him back up to Captain post-war, I would suspect this watch was given to him at the time of the disbanding of the 76th Training Reserve Battalion, and the wording reflects that the battalion was originally the 12th Battalion, King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) and that both Sydney and the original instructors who transferred over with him may have retained their KORL badges.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 29 March , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[Guest]

He was my maternal grandmother's first cousin. Verden is the family name on his mother's side.  My mother, who was interested in family history talked with his sister (Doris Pilkington) about him in the 1990s, and I have her notes, also a photo (tho' I'll have to work out how to extract this from an old frame to scan, so it'll take a day or two).

 

According to Doris:

 

Was in OTC at Lancaster Royal Grammar School

Had scholarship to go to Oxbridge (remarkable enough in a tradesman's family at the time) but enlisted instead (he would be 18 in 1914)

Did serve in France

Married unhappily 

Went to Manchester University after the war, graduated, then went to teach in Barbados.

They had a child Geoffrey, whilst in Manchester.  

Once in Barbados his wife had an affair (& possibly 'ran off').

He committed suicide

 

I think the gist of this is correct, though bear in mind that Doris would only be 10 in 1914, that she was 90 when she told this to my mother and that she could be a bit erratic by that age -- tho' mostly on what'd happened yesterday, not years ago

 

I don't understand the 'Student teacher' in 1911 census.  He'd be 15 then.  Should that be '21 census?

I'm wondering if he went into the ranks in 1914 and then commissioned later, but do not know.  I'm inclined to think that the bit about volunteering in 1914 may be right - otherwise why didn't he go up to university then, given the scholarship?

[Ivor Anderson]

Very sad story! Pre-WW1, older promising students were kept on by national schools as mentors and were encouraged to gain experience and apply for teacher training/university entrance exams. They got paid a little and the school got a cheap teaching assistant. My paternal grandmother was one, but her family could not afford to supplement the costs of further training. Her son (my Dad) got a scholarship to a (now Russell Group) Uni, post WW2 and got a 1st in Physics. Sydney's older sister Evelyn was also a 'student for the teaching profession' in 1911 (off Ancestry):

Edited 29 March , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[arantxa]

David

That is such a sad story ...I went to Manchester too   many many moons ago

I have a family picture with it..it came with it dont know if it is but i can scan it or you can hav e the original as its your family 

David would love a scan picture  you cam email it  matt@finegrain.co.uk   or whats app if easier 07976 787617

[PRC]

Hi @David L and welcome to the forum.

 

3 hours ago, David L said:

but enlisted instead (he would be 18 in 1914)

Did serve in France

 

So far we've not found anything to support those two statements, but could be something buried away in his officers files that will confirm them. Unfortunately officers records have not been digitised and made available online, and currently I'm not aware of any plans for that to happen. They have to be viewed at the National Archive at Kew, although there are researchers offering copying services.

 

As an officer he had to apply for his medals, even if they were awarded for the time he was serving in the ranks, so he may simply have chosen to either not apply or died before he got round to it.

 

Will look forward to seeing the picture - it's always good to put a face to a name.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[arantxa]

i agree Peter makes it more personal

[Guest]

Sorry for the long silence.  Other matters supervened and I was away from the family history box.

 

Ivor---- interesting.  I didn't know that older schoolchildren were employed to employed to teach younger.  Not bad in a way, there is nothing like having to explain something to test if you understand it.   We still use PhD students as 'demonstrators' in undergraduate lab practicals.   In this case, all 3 siblings went on to become teachers.   Evelyn was one of the first students at the Lancaster Girls Grammar, established in 1907. She went to do an MA in geography at Manchester University; uncommon for a woman at the time.

 

PRC ---- fair criticism.  All I have, from Doris, the little sister, is an undated (early 1990s, I'm sure) letter to my mother, saying:

 

"Yes, Syd belonged to the OTC at [the] R.G.School [meaning Lancaster Royal Grammar School]. He was brilliant - got a schol[arship] to Oxford - but would [her underlining] enlist in 1914.  One day he was at school - the next, almost, in France."

 

She then goes on about his marriage, with some harsh words about the wife.  I won't include here, lest this lady was some reader's much-loved grandmother, but, Anantxa, I am sending you a scan.  Beyond confirming that he made Captain, and had promised to marry his fiancee if he did so, Doris's further observations are not relevant to Sydney's WW1 career.    

 

The 10th Battalion, to which he was gazetted in 1915 was a training battalion and never left England .http://www.kingsownmuseum.com/ww1-10korlr.htm.  Your researches, PRC, indicate that, when this was disbanded in mid-1916, he transferred to another training battalion, the 76th.   So, any service in France must have have been in the first year of the war, and hinges on whether he did enlist in 1914.  

 

So, it's really a question of what weight you'll put on Doris's recall, 80 years after the event.  On the one hand her letter stresses his determination to enlist, suggesting to me that it was a strong childhood memory.  On the other it is odd that there is the record of the Hulme House Scholarship (Corisande, above) in 1915.  What was he doing applying for that if he'd enlisted the previous year?  And is Doris confusing that with an Oxford scholarship?

 

By the time of the letter, around her  90th year, Doris was apt to make some startling claims about current events, particularly whether a certain minister of the church had defrauded her.  But long term memory lasts better than short  and the letter to my mother is cogent.  She died in 1997 and my mother in 2010, so neither can add anything now.

 

I attach Sydney's photo below.  No date and taken at a studio in Portsmouth.  Looks very young.   Also, and curiously, as my father once remarked 'Why doesn't he have any badges of rank?'.

 

Edited 8 April , 2021 by Guest