Help! Gallipoli suggestions wanted

[Justin Moretti]

My aunt is a schoolteacher, and in charge of Anzac Day celebrations at the local (Australian) primary school. I am looking for material to direct her to that presents a balanced view of the conflict. That is, not necessarily a 'whitewash' of the Allied experience, but one which makes it clear that it wasn't all one sided, that the Turks suffered losses too, and that avoids Pommy-bashing, i.e. the "Effing British Generals betraying our gullible/brave/abused (or whatever) Aussies/Kiwis" syndrome, even if it does criticise the managment of the campaign.

It need not necessarily be suitable or appropriate for the children to read, although if anyone knows of a 'balanced' kids' book on the campaign that would also be good. I know the whole thing was a disaster from start to finish (except, of course, for the very end), but I agree with the attitude that the British generals have been (some) Dominion historians' whipping boys for far too long, and I want to avoid poisoning another generation with unreasoning Pommy-hatred as a recruitment method for axe-grinding republicans.

(Not that I think Australian republicanism is invalid, but I do feel that some of them are out to grind axes and settle scores, rather than necessarily trying to improve our constitution and governance.)

[DrB]

Justin...Nigel Steel and Peter hart wrote "Defeat at Gallopoli" in 1994 which avoids the "idiotic Generals' bashing fairly well. It gives primarily the UK and ANZAC side with some credit to the French, but little to do with the Turkish suffering.

It is a good read and one that deals with the Helles area as well as the ANZAC attempts. (And the aptly named Stopford blunders at Suvla)

DrB

[Tag]

Justin , try ....Gallipoli 1915 pens, pencils and cameras at war by Peter H. Liddle... Tag

[Guest Brissie]

My aunt is a schoolteacher, and in charge of Anzac Day celebrations at the local (Australian) primary school. I am looking for material to direct her to that presents a balanced view of the conflict. That is, not necessarily a 'whitewash' of the Allied experience, but one which makes it clear that it wasn't all one sided, that the Turks suffered losses too, and that avoids Pommy-bashing, i.e. the "Effing British Generals betraying our gullible/brave/abused (or whatever) Aussies/Kiwis" syndrome, even if it does criticise the managment of the campaign.

Justin

Auntie may like to compare notes with her local (Australian) Uniting Church Minister. She may even get an audience outside the church, built by public subscription in memory of laocal WW1 casualties, from which he derives his daily bread. They could discuss why it is no longer acceptable for the coffins of those who fought for what they believed to be the country's cause, often urged on from the pulpits of that time, to be draped with the Australian Flag during their requium.

That flag still includes the Union Jack, and its deletion does not appear to be a major objective of the Republicans.

You are well aware of John Laffin's writings on the war in general, on ANZAC in particular, and that many of his books are written specifically for children. There does not appear to be many references to British Generals in the childrens books, and none of the references anywhere are couched in the terms you use.

As your Aunt is in charge (Shudder!) of Primary school children under the age of 10, lets hope she spares them any grisly debates on the competence of any Generals and concentrates on the personal qualities displayed at Gallipoli. She might also remember that the occasion is ANZAC Day, not Gallipoli Day, not WW1 Day, not Remembrance Day. The armchair strategists, whether revisionist or not, can waffle on to their hearts content as to whether Gallipoli was a victory or defeat.

ANZAC Day is special in that it is a celebration of the spirit of so-called common men against oveerwhelming odds. Despite the current desecration of ANZAC Cove,

and the bitter cross-trench rivalry in the cricket, and the snubbing of Johnny Farnham, both Turkey & New Zealand openly recognise that special bond between us.

Lets also hope your Aunty is more circumspect when expressing her political views than are you.

Tag

Whoe WAS Stopford

[Justin Moretti]

As your Aunt is in charge (Shudder!) of Primary school children under the age of 10, lets hope she spares them any grisly debates on the competence of any Generals and concentrates on the personal qualities displayed at Gallipoli. She might also remember that the occasion is ANZAC Day, not Gallipoli Day, not WW1 Day, not Remembrance Day. The armchair strategists, whether revisionist or not, can waffle on to their hearts content as to whether Gallipoli was a victory or defeat.

ANZAC Day is special in that it is a celebration of the spirit of so-called common men against oveerwhelming odds. Despite the current desecration of ANZAC Cove,

and the bitter cross-trench rivalry in the cricket, and the snubbing of Johnny Farnham, both Turkey & New Zealand openly recognise that special bond between us.

Lets also hope your Aunty is more circumspect when expressing her political views than are you.

Tag

Whoe WAS Stopford

Alas I was not spared as a senior primary school student, and I want to make sure the next generation is. My aunt is a reasonable person, but there ARE educated, reasonable people out there who STILL think that the failure of the Allied armies in battle was due to the gin bottles blocking the generals' view of the map.

I wonder if Turkey doesn't realise the special bond better than the rest of us?

As far as political circumspectness is concerned, so what? I'm hardly painting all republicans with the same broad brush, and I apologise if that's the impression I gave.

[Guest Brissie]

If we are counting Auntie among the EDUCATED and REASONABLE, there ARE serious concerns for the next generation. None of our teachers would rely on their nephew to find them a single book from which they would EDUCATE their charges, even with nearly three weeks of concentrated evaluation before they took charge of any remembrance ceremony.

OK The above was a bit tongue-in cheek.

But maybe Auntie can come up with a new angle. Pompey may not object to the kids sharing his Grandpa's Diary as we all have. There doesn't seem to be too much whingeing, or Pommy Or Officer Bashing in that lot. Its warts and all, particularly about the 7th Battalion ratting the 8th's kitbags. And is the writer downhearted?

Next time the kids get bussed off to the swimming pool or beach, they might realise how lucky they are, and just how important a dip was to the soldiers at Anzac Cove. They might be encouraged to form their own impressions.

After all, the kids are the only hope we have left.

You asked for a "Balanced" view of the campaign. I would recommend the Time Life Series, Australians at War Volume entitled "Gallipoli One Long Grave" by Kit Denton. It has segments "The Enemy Face", "Father of the Turks", and "REspected Enemies" & was published in 1986.

[Paul Reed]

I would recommend Les Carylon's 'Gallipoli'. Les is an Australian historian, and it was originally published there - by whom I don't know, as I have the UK edition. Personally I think it one of the finest accounts of the campaign ever to be written and it should cover all the angles you mention.

[Dolphin]

Justin

I think that it's a good sign that your aunt is prepared to ask you, someone who knows and cares something about the War, for some assistance.

You might like to look at the new Sydney Morning Herald/Melbourne Age book Gallipoli by Jonathan King and Michael Bowers [iSBN 1 86325 471 4]. It's full of contemporary accounts and has dozens of hitherto unpublished photographs.

One minor mystery is why so many authors/publishers who produce books about the Dardanelles campaign call their product simply Gallipoli; I think that I have at least 6 books with just that title on my bookshelves.

Regards

Gareth

[Blackblue]

I second Paul's suggestion....Les Carlyon's book is the best I have read.

Rgds

Tim D

[bluedog]

I'll go along with Paul and Blackblue regarding Les Carlyon's

"Gallipoli', right down to the cats outside the fish market in

Canakkale, a really GREAT book on the campaign.

I am leaving Australia for Canakkale [again] on April 7th for

a month.

cheers and beers

Peter

[Blackblue]

Peter,

I'll be there in early May and spending a few days. Any tips on where to stay etc.? Am looking at Cannakale and traveling across by ferry each day. Is there transport available to visit Suvla and Helles?

Rgds

Tim

[bluedog]

Tim

Paul Reed and Martin and Kate Wills are the Helles and Suvla experts

so I am sure that they can answer any questions in those sectors.

If you will send me your e-mail address through the forum, I will be only

too happy to pass on what info that I have plus the web addresses of two other

Aussies with Gallipoli experiencs.

I will be leaving Canakkale around midday 4-5-05 for Istanbul, will you be there before that?

I will send you any updates around the 15th April from Anzac House Hostel

as they have a computer service with an English keyboard

Peter

[paul guthrie]

Tim Travers is a wonderful Canadian historian with 2 relatives still there, his Gallipoli 1915 at least I think that's title, is really good, lots of new research in Ottoman archives, he shoots down some myths like one more naval push would have done the job cause Turks nearly out of ammo. Just not true, had lots.

[Andrew P]

Peter,

I'll be there in early May and spending a few days. Any tips on where to stay etc.? Am looking at Cannakale and traveling across by ferry each day. Is there transport available to visit Suvla and Helles?

Rgds

Tim

Tim

TJ's in Eceabat is a good place to stay. Stayed there for awhile. The bonus is that you don't have to catch the ferry across each time you want to visit the battlefields which is what happens when you stay in Cannakale.

Even though Eceabat is smaller than Cannakale, organising getting to the battlefields from there was easy.

If you get time It would be interesting to get yours and Peter's impressions of the work that has been undertaken at Anzac Cove. I presume by the time your'e there it will have been finished.

Regards

Andrew

[Blackblue]

Thanks Andrew. Just the sort of information I wanted. Peter has also advised this is the best bet. Do you know if local transport is available? If I wanted to get a taxi to Suvla for example and then collected later in the day after walking about can it be done?

Rgds

Tim

[Andrew P]

We organised a drop off/pick up through TJ's driver for going to Anzac and I'm sure it could be done for Suvla.

The only problem was he forgot to pick us up Ended up better in the long run as we met some locals who took us under their wing.

I've been told taxis can also be booked for these sort of drop off and pick ups.

I think I remember Bryn saying he walked from Eceabat to Anzac.

[Blackblue]

Cheers mate. Would love to walk but will have a chick in tow! Best thing is she has planned the next part of the trip.......and we are visiting Crete, Greece and Malta! (Shhhhh....she doesn't know anything happened there yet!!).

TD

[Tag]

My aunt is a schoolteacher, and in charge of Anzac Day celebrations at the local (Australian) primary school. I am looking for material to direct her to that presents a balanced view of the conflict. That is, not necessarily a 'whitewash' of the Allied experience, but one which makes it clear that it wasn't all one sided, that the Turks suffered losses too, and that avoids Pommy-bashing, i.e. the "Effing British Generals betraying our gullible/brave/abused (or whatever) Aussies/Kiwis" syndrome, even if it does criticise the managment of the campaign.

Justin

Auntie may like to compare notes with her local (Australian) Uniting Church Minister. She may even get an audience outside the church, built by public subscription in memory of laocal WW1 casualties, from which he derives his daily bread. They could discuss why it is no longer acceptable for the coffins of those who fought for what they believed to be the country's cause, often urged on from the pulpits of that time, to be draped with the Australian Flag during their requium.

That flag still includes the Union Jack, and its deletion does not appear to be a major objective of the Republicans.

You are well aware of John Laffin's writings on the war in general, on ANZAC in particular, and that many of his books are written specifically for children. There does not appear to be many references to British Generals in the childrens books, and none of the references anywhere are couched in the terms you use.

As your Aunt is in charge (Shudder!) of Primary school children under the age of 10, lets hope she spares them any grisly debates on the competence of any Generals and concentrates on the personal qualities displayed at Gallipoli. She might also remember that the occasion is ANZAC Day, not Gallipoli Day, not WW1 Day, not Remembrance Day. The armchair strategists, whether revisionist or not, can waffle on to their hearts content as to whether Gallipoli was a victory or defeat.

ANZAC Day is special in that it is a celebration of the spirit of so-called common men against oveerwhelming odds. Despite the current desecration of ANZAC Cove,

and the bitter cross-trench rivalry in the cricket, and the snubbing of Johnny Farnham, both Turkey & New Zealand openly recognise that special bond between us.

Lets also hope your Aunty is more circumspect when expressing her political views than are you.

Tag

Whoe WAS Stopford

Stopford?...I need a little more of an explanation. What are you asking? Tag

[Andrew P]

Cheers mate. Would love to walk but will have a chick in tow! Best thing is she has planned the next part of the trip.......and we are visiting Crete, Greece and Malta! (Shhhhh....she doesn't know anything happened there yet!!).

TD

Sounds like it will be a great trip Tim. Crete is one of my favourite places. Very envious

Have you read the book 'Escape From Crete'? It only came out in the last year or so.

Cheers

Andrew

[Blackblue]

Haven't mate. Wil see if I can get my hands on a copy.

Rgds

Tim

[MartinWills]

As for transport around the peninsula there are some services to connect with the sailings from Gaba Tepe across to Gokceada (Imbros) which would get you most of the way to anzac. Suvla is a little more remote, but the taxi to drop you off and meet you options seem to work. People staying at TJs have also been favoured with transport across to Anzac when TJ is running his day tours. You can also get down to Krithia (Alciitepe these days) and Sedd-ul-Bahr with the minibus like services that connect with some ferries at Eceabat and/or Kilibahir, but you will need to research these "on the ground".

On the book front can I add to the list of recommendations the following:

Gallipoli - Michael Hickey fairly easy reading and informative but perhaps not top of the list

Gallipoli - Richard Rhodes James Published in the 1960's this is a very thorough account and well worth acquiring

In addition a well balanced set of accounts of those who fought can be found in Peter Liddle's "Men of Gallipoli" which draws on French; British and ANZAC experiences and which, to my mind, is also a most enjoyable and easy going read.

[Blackblue]

Thanks Martin.

[Justin Moretti]

Thanks, everyone.

I suppose what I wanted LEAST was for my aunt's schoolkids to be put under the impression that Gallipoli was a one-way slaughter with hardly a Turk scratched, and row upon row of Aussie corpses, when the casualty figures tell a very different story.

Certainly the degree of British and French involvement on land is underplayed in this country - I believe the casualties of the Aussies and Kiwis TOGETHER do not add to even one of their allies in this little campaign.

[Ozzie]

When your Auntie gets through reading those books so far recommended here are some more

Volume II of the Australian Official History, which is on line at:http://awm.gov.au/histories/ww1/2/index.asp

Goodbye Cobber, God Bless You by John Hamilton

The Nek by Peter Burness

Just a personal note. To give a balanced view of Gallipoli to todays children, you will also have to teach them about the white Australia policy, the beliefs and traditions of the period which induced so many men to join an army put together for the purpose of helping her allies, the fact that there was no conscription in WW1 for the Aussies. Then after reading all the available material you may be able to explain to 21st centuary children, Gallipoli 90years ago, because after reading inumerable books, studying many internet sites, attending memorials and museums, and reading first hand accounts by the men who fought, I am still trying to undertand the intricasies of Gallipoli.

I suppose it all depends on how emotional you become after studying the subject thoroughly.

ANZAC DAY. We shall remember them.

[Guest TCIngrid]

Thanks, everyone.

I suppose what I wanted LEAST was for my aunt's schoolkids to be put under the impression that Gallipoli was a one-way slaughter with hardly a Turk scratched, and row upon row of Aussie corpses, when the casualty figures tell a very different story.

Certainly the degree of British and French involvement on land is underplayed in this country - I believe the casualties of the Aussies and Kiwis TOGETHER do not add to even one of their allies in this little campaign.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Clicking on the following link may help put your casualty rates in perspective

ASSASSIN - BILLY SING

If, perhaps, you feel the row on row of Aussie corpses shown in the film "Gallipoli" is over the top, a quick check of the statistics for the Charge at The Nek in August 1915, and an appreciation of the actual dimensions of the "battlefield" might even suggest an understatement.

Actually, there don't seem to be many photographs of the row upon row of corpses

from either side taken on Gallipoli. There are some of the Australians who fell at 2nd Krithia, and of very limited numbers of bodies near the Lone Pine parapets. It would have been decidedly unhealthy to attempt to obtain a pictorial record for the education of future generations. There is ample evidence in the statistics, official & personal records of large numbers of corpses remaining unburied to the distinct discomfort of the living. Many were not recovered until well after hostilities ceased, and others have only recently been located.

But why concentrate on the Dardanelles? ANZAC Day is much more than that. It is not simply to remember those who actually died there........ but why bother?

Sit back with the kids and learn from the re-runs of Pearl Harbour, Tobruk, All Quiet etc etc which are screened around this time each year.