Albert Edward Mansell DLI

[Mansell]

TEW,

 

I have attached the plan of evacuation routes to and from Bedford House (this is from the LongLong Trail).

 

It shows arrangements for April / May 1916 and therefore the route my great uncle Henry would have been taken after being mortally wounded at Gordon Terrace. 

 

I think this plan shows a RAP close to where Gordon Terrace is located (think I've plotted that properly), close to the Ypres-Comines canal.  Does that look right to you?

 

I assume it would have been 2 Canadian FA stretcher bearers who carried him from the RAP to Bedford House and motor ambulance from there to Kruitsraat Collecting Post?

 

It seems the next stages would have been Vlamertinghe then Remy Siding, where he died of wounds.  Would these stage have been motor ambulance too? 

 

Thank you for all your help.

 

Mansell

 

 

[TEW]

So Frost House would have been the ADS (though of course, my grandfather might have used the term 'dressing station' in a looser sense when in fact meaning the RAP)?

Yes, ADS or Advanced Dressing Station. What type of dressing station probably not important to a wounded soldier.

 

Is the 50 Div page you mention a subscription item again so I cant ask or access it?

Can't provide the image from ancestry but the whole diary for 1917 is available for free from TNA, register and download. It's in the appendices following the December typed up dairy. Fourth sheet, marked App.  No 3 Medical Arrangements 10th December 1917.

 

In terms of Remy Siding CCS, given my great-uncle is named in its records (death 3.4.16) do you think there a record for my grandfather's 2 days admission there, and would it mention him by name?

No, deaths can be recorded but there's no requirement to do so in a diary. Lists of admissions virtually unheard of.

 

And the same for Wimereux Base Hospital, for the week?

Same story applies really. You can ID which hospitals there were in Wimereux from TLLT and then check TNA for diaries but I suspect they'll just give lists of total numbers.

 

Is the 1/1 Northumbrian FA diary online?

Yes, TNA again. Here.

TEW

[Mansell]

TEW,

 

Amazing detail, thank you for taking the trouble.

 

I downloaded the 50 Div diary as you suggested and found exactly the evacuation plan you referenced. 

 

I noticed in the same plan the reference to 44 CCS at  Nine Elms (its on page 99 of the diary but crossed through with Remy Sidings substituted). 

 

Nine Elms is of particular interest so I downloaded the 44 CCS diary but for December 1917 it was based at Namur, not Nine Elms.  

 

Interestingly, on the LongLong Trail, 44 CCS is given as Nine Elms for December 1917 (if I have read it correctly).

 

I was looking for the casualty Sgt Maj Arthur Butler, Queens (Royal West Surrey) Regt who died on 5 December 1917 and is buried at Nine Elms. 

 

Could you put me on the right track for the CCS at Nine Elms for this date?

 

Thank you.

 

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TEW]

Mansell,

 

I can check 44 CCS location tomorrow.

 

Are you certain about-

Nine Elms is of particular interest so I downloaded the 44 CCS diary but for December 1917 it was based at Namur, not Nine Elms.

 

It looks as though it was at Namur in December 1918 and Nine Elms December 1917.

 

One record for Butler says he died at 44 CCS so if he's buried at Nine Elms Cemetery............?

TEW

[Mansell]

TEW,

 

You're right (of course) sorry, I was looking at 1918 and I've now found the relevant page.

 

No name here, in contrast with 17 CCS diary for 1916, where my uncle's death is recorded (by name(. I think I read somewhere on the forum that names were not recorded after / during 1917. 

 

Do you think Butler will be named somewhere as an admission, or his death?

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is the page I found 

44 CCS NINE ELMS - DECEMBER 3.pdf

[TEW]

As with all these cases all the medical  units did have admission and discharge books. Most of these were destroyed in the 1970s. The small amount that were retained are listed on The Long Long Trail.

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/hospital-admissions-and-discharge-records/

 

Whatever they add to a diary for a soldier is an extra really. Some diaries keep lists of dead until Summer 1916 others have none.

 

Butler's death at 44 CCS is recorded in Soldiers' Effects on Ancestry, again not usual to record place of death but in this case they did.

 

There seems to be a pension card/ledger on Fold3 or Western Front Association for him. Findmypast seem to have Boer War service records for him and some WWI service records.

 

Military, armed forces & conflict.

Arthur Butler

5613.

TEW

 

 

 

 

 

[Mansell]

TEW, 

 

Thank you for this, its really useful.  Arthur Butler was my friends grandfather, he did serve in the Boer War, he has the medals from that campaign, plus the WW! medals and the MM. 

 

I've downloaded some diaries from TNA, as you advised, and find myself totally distracted from the specific search in hand and instead studying with fascination the details on every page.   It's marvellous stuff.  Like many on here, I wish this material had been accessible while my grandfather was alive. 

 

When you have a spare moment, could I trouble you to help me with the  Bedford House evacuation stages, posted above, if possible.

 

With much appreciation.

 

[TEW]

I'll take a look at some more diaries later. In the mean time I've tracked down The Canadian Map from The Long Long Trail showing evacuations. It is in the May 1916 Appendices for the 1st Canadian Division ADMS. It is also quite out of date for Henry Mansell's injury of 2/3/16 as noted in the field returns for the 8/DLI. But, see below.

 

The 8/DLI diary says they suffered 5 killed, 15 wounded and 2 missing on 2/3/16, Henry being one of the wounded. The Canadian's took over the line later that day so the Canadians do not seem to be involved in his evacuation. This takes you back to the Northumbrian field ambulances.

 

So far I've not found any mention in British diaries for the location of the RAPs in Early April 1916. RAPs can often get shut down and a new one located elsewhere or simply moved a little way for shelter. I've been doing quite a bit for this sector recently from May 15 to Dec 17 and although the same RAP names pop up they can have different map refs. EG the RAP at Spoilbank is sometimes tucked in behind the bank on the north side of the canal but can move to the south side, proximity to the bridge seems key. Spoilbank may also be the same RAP known as Chester Farm, if not, they are very close.

 

Bedford House RAP sometimes has a map ref that puts it closer to Woodcote House. There may also be some typos and/or sloppy map referencing going on.

 

The good news is the Canadian's are much more detailed and give typed up locations for the RAPs 16/4/1916.

 

Image from Library and Archives Canada

 

I.29.b.4.5 is in Fosse Wood and could be RAP #4 on the May map. Closest to Gordon Terrace?

I.29.c.2.5 is in Larch Wood or Railway Cutting (possibly interchangeable names) could be RAP #3

I.34.b.4.8 is in The Ravine/Sunken road and could be #2

I.33.a.4.1 is at The Spoilbank south side could be #1.

 

It's possible the Canadian map should be in the April appendices, I say that because although it's in with May there are other documents dated in May that give other locations for RAPs EG one at Maple Copse I.30.a.3.7.

 

Can't seem to link properly to the Canadian document but if you follow this link then move to page 198 of 570.  Move the slider.

 

It adds the route from RAP to ADS (I assume left sector, left brigade) notes the collecting post and the method down to CCS IE MAC #11. As MACs were under Army control it's quite feasible 11 MAC were on this route for some time.

 

I'll see if there are any changes to this in the British diaries but I doubt there will be this much detail.

 

TEW

Edited 28 March , 2021 by TEW

[Mansell]

TEW,

 

Thank you very much for putting this togther.

 

My starting point was Albert's recollection, because he accompanied his badly wounded brother as far as Bedford House, and I also have Henry's service record (attached) which shows it was 2 Canadian FA which evacuated Henry back.  I then managed to download the 2 Canadian FA diary for the relevant period (as the link you gave).  The above map is from the website which carried the diary (and also confirmation that 2 Can FA was on station at Bedford House etc as from 31 March 1916).   

 

From Bedford House, I plotted the likely journey back to Kruisstraat (collecting post) then to Vlamertinghe, then 17 CCS at Remy Sidings. 

 

I could not be sure of the modes of transport for the sections of the journey (stretcher - carry, motor ambulance etc). But I did find a page from later in 1916 from the Australian Corps which gives more detail of this area (and maybe not much changed as compared to April 1916, but I wouldnt know). 

 

Of the 4 RAPs you have included, does the one closest to Gordon Terrace coincide with the RAP marked on the Canadian plan above, as marked it seems to be hard against the bank of the Yser -Comines canal, as Gordon Terrace was?

 

For the purpose of my family project, ideally I'd like high-probability on means of reaching Bedford House and, from there, the next stops and means of transport on the stages.

 

As for RAP, I'll settle for the one closest to Gordon Terrace (hoping the one you've identified as closest to Gordon Terrace is also that marked on the Canadian map).

 

You've been tremendously helpful TEW, thank you.

 

 

 

[TEW]

Yes, I've had a skim through 50th Division ADMS diary and see that although the 8/DLI were relieved evening of 2nd April the field ambulances were handing over dressing stations etc to the Canadians from early on the 1st.

 

The nearest RAP to Gordon Terrace is the #1 on the map, against the Canal. It's Spoilbank RAP. From there to Bedford House is by stretcher, either hand or wheeled versions or walk if possible.

 

I'll check the 50th ADMS again but I'm fairly sure it's a combination of horse drawn ambulances to the collecting post then motor ambulances to Vlamertinge then MAC to CCS.

 

I think I had it wrong saying he was in the left sector, seems to be the right sector.

TEW

[Mansell]

Thanks again TEW. 

 

I'll go with Spoilbank RAP, as you say, and very pleased you have identified it for me.  

 

From the collecting post I too thought motorised, but wasnt at all sure about getting there from Bedford House.  It would seem too far / too much time for stretcher, even with relay posts?

 

Mansell

 

 

 

[TEW]

The Canadian diary page I linked to had something on the routes/methods and somewhere I've seen a trolley line mentioned but it may be for another route.

 

From Bedford House I think horse drawn ambulances.

TEW

 

 

[TEW]

There are in fact some relevant details in the ADMS diary 50th Division.

 

WO/95/2815/2 part 2. Worth reading the typed up March 1916 pages. 24/3/16 they issue new Medical Arrangements when the front was extended to the right, up to the Canal. Appendix 1.

 

The arrangements from page 59 part 2 are similar to the Canadian one of ~3 weeks later.

 

They give more detail on the personnel and methods of evacuation and do mention a trolley line but this is in the left sector. The collecting station near Kruisstraat seems to be for walking wounded arriving from ADS moving on to Vlamertinge.

 

The stretcher cases went by motor ambulance cars from Bedford House into Ypres via Lilie Gate then to Vlamertige.

 

Motor Ambulance cars are normally run by MACs, the Canadians however also mention motor ambulance cars of the field ambulances. Not entirely sure that a FA had cars but there are references to such going on here. Perhaps on loan?

 

There's another appendix mis-placed into WO95/2815/3 page 13. Dated 27/3/16 and details the relief by the Canadians, it's a four day process.

 

It gives approx times for the hand over of the ADSs and locations of each unit prior to the relief.

 

It seems there was an overlap of personnel so he may have moved between Canadian and British units depending on the time he was wounded on the 2nd.

 

It was put upon the OC of #2 Northumbrian FA (Bedford House) to get all British wounded to CCS sometime on the 2nd even though they had handed over the ADS the previous evening.

TEW

[Mansell]

Thank you TEW, looks excellent, will study closely later.

 

[Mansell]

TEW,

 

I've been trying to reconstruct the note I lost the other week which set out my understanding of the evacuation sequence you laid out.

 

I've nearly finished (I think) but at least two points I'm struggling with. 

 

Is the Appendix 1 you mention above (and which is typed in the margin for 24 March 1916) the page attached? The only reference to '1' of course is the blue pencil so I'm wondering if I've got the wrong page/document.

 

Also, the same entry refers to the 'map of our present front'.  The only map I could see did not appear to show the Bluff sector.

 

If I have got the wrong documents / pages, as I think, would you be able to attach them to a reply?

 

Thank you.

 

Mansell

 

[TEW]

Yes, page 55 of part 2 of the diary has the typed 'Appendix 1' which links to the one on page 60 as per your last post.

 

Your second query about the map of the front. These things are so frustrating, frequently you find references to maps or appendices that are not present. The map at the end of the March appendices is I think misplaced and should relate to the appendices noted on page 66, for 4/4/16. This map shows the new positions they took over 5/4/16.

 

I have sometimes found missing appendices, sometimes a year out of sync or in sync but in the wrong diary.

TEW

[Mansell]

 

 

TEW,

 

I’ve had a closer look at the material you referenced and I’ve set out my understanding of it below, with some questions, (numbering to organise my thoughts):

 

Chronology of Evacuation

 

1.     8 DLI was in the Right Sector of the Right Brigade [50 Div diary Vol 2 p.60].

 

2.     27.3.16   Orders stipulated RAMC personnel at the Advanced Dressing Stations were to be relieved by the 1^st Canadian Division; Bedford House on evening of 1 April [ 50 Div Diary vol 3 p.13]

 

Comment: This order is ‘high level’ in the sense it is Divisional stated objective but, as you say, timings approximate and therefore possibly not as accurate as the notes made by the people ‘in the field’.

 

3.     31.3.16   Three detachments of 2^nd Canadian FA moved out today to Mill, Vlamertinghe.  1 MO and 26 other ranks to take over post at Bedford House. [2^nd Canadian FA diary p.124].

 

Comment: I note the term ‘to take over’ implying ‘in order to take over in due course…but not yet].

 

4.     31.3.16   (7:00pm) Canadian FA arrived at Vlamertinghe Dressing Station to take over the advanced dressing stations [from 1^st Northumbrian FA] but only 1 officer and 2 men of the Canadian FA were sent to Bedford House (other Canadian FA personnel were sent to Railway Dugouts and Kruisstraat).  It is noted that men of the 1^st Northumbrian would leave on 2 April thus making room for Canadian FA men who had to be billeted elsewhere [1 NFA diary Vol 1 p.103 ]

 

Comment: This seems to be the beginning of the ‘overlap’ you mention?

 

5.     1.4.16   No 2/2 NFA ambulance party moves from Bedford House to rejoin unit HQ on relief by 1^st Canadian Div [50 Div diary vol 3 p.15]

 

Comment: But could this have still left at Bedford House men of 1 NFA and/or 3 NFA?

 

6.     2.4.16  9:00am 2^nd Canadian FA break camp and proceed to Vlamertighe Mill and took over from the ‘Northumbrian Division’ [ 2^nd Canadian FA diary p.197]

 

7.     2.4.16  11:00am  2^nd Canadian FA Officers and personnel arrived at Vlamertinghe Mill and took over from noon.  3:00pm 2^nd Canadian FA transport and personnel arrived to take over [1 NFA diary Vol 1 p.106 ]

 

8.     2.4.16  - afternoon - The RAP Henry Mansell reached after being wounded would likely have been the one labelled the ‘Bluff’ I now think, as (a) shown on the attached map from the Australian records, and (b) the entry in the 50 Div diary for 24 March 1916.  This RAP is also very close to Gordon Terrace, in fact virtually at the same location as the Brigade Dugouts in Gordon Terrace, marked on the DLI map (and Henry was ‘completing some graves’ outside the Brigade HQ when the bombardment opened).  The Australian map, from the diary of the 2^nd Australian Field Ambulance for September 1916, coincides with the RAP shown on the Canadian map with an RAP in that location in April 1916. 

 

Comment: I add ‘afternoon’ as the 8 DLI diary for 2 April 1916 states: the enemy continued to shell Gordon Terrace and Kingsway in the afternoon’.

 

9.     2.4.16  This Division [50^th] took over the front and area held by Canadian Division. The personnel was relieved at Bedford House last evening [i.e. 2 April 1916 - 50 Div diary Vol 2 p.65 3 April 1916]

 

Comment: As a report of what actually happened this seems likely more accurate than what should have happened, as at point (3) above,

 

Mode / Route of Evacuation

 

10.  According to the written 50 Div ‘Arrangements for the Collection of Sick and Wounded’, it was usually impossible to evacuate wounded from the Advanced Dressing Stations during daylight i.e. Bedford House [50 Div diary Vol 2 p.12].

 

11.  Regimental stretcher bearers would have moved Henry to the RAP (the Bluff, as at (8) above, assuming he was not helped by a comrade or just managed to make that short journey without assistance, which we’ll never know). [50 Div diary Vol 2 p.60].

 

12.  From the RAP Henry’s route was by Kingsway and road to Bedford House, by Field Ambulance stretcher bearers [50 Div diary Vol 2 p.60]

 

Comment: Also on page 60 I see your point that Kruisstraat was the collection point for walking wounded (not Henry).

 

13.  After dark, Field Ambulance stretcher bearers (at Bedford House) would have taken Henry, using a trolley or wheeled stretcher carrier, from Bedford House itself to the collection point I.26 a.5.3 [50 Div diary Vol 2 p.61].

 

14.  At this collection point Henry would have been placed in a Motor Ambulance Car and then taken to the Dressing Station at the Mill, Vlamertinghe. This journey would have been via Ypres, entering the town through the Lille Gate.

 

Comment: The attached map shows the road, running roughly north/south and I see your point that it enters Ypres at Lille Gate (after passing Shrapnel Corner).

 

Some questions still unresolved for me are:

 

(a)   In relation to Northumberland FA there are references to 1, 2/2 and No. 3.  How can we identify which of these was manning Bedford House? According to p.15 Vol 3 of the Northumberland diary it was 2/2 which I think is consistent with the final paragraph of your analysis (and as below at (b)).

 

(b)   How / where did you establish it was the put upon OC of #2 Northumbrian FA (Bedford House) to get all British wounded to CCS sometime on the 2nd even though they had handed over the ADS the previous evening?

 

(c)   What would the means of transport have been from Vlamertinghe to Lijssenthoek (Henry’s service record attached previously shows it was 2 Canadian FA which took him back to Lijssenthoek).

 

If you have the time (and patience) I’d very much appreciate your critique of the above.

 

 Thank you for all your help.

 

Regards,

 

 

 

[TEW]

Well, you've certainly put all this together and pretty much have dotted all the 'i's and crossed all the 't's.

 

The handing over of the medical posts could have involved a transition period or overlap. Certainly looks like Canadians were running medical units while British ones were also running before that one was handed over. The term 'proceeded to take over' could mean that some British staff remained with the Canadians for a handing over period. Sometimes a diary will say 'handing over completed at....'

 

Your unresolved questions.

 

a.

2/2 NFFA diary says Capt. Low, 1 NCO & 12 men sent to take over Bedford House 22/3/16. Reinforced by same number of men 25/3/16. Then they all returned to HQ 2/4/16.

WO95/2824/2 pages 73 & 76.

 

b.

This comes from WO95/2815/3 page 14. Para. 7. RAMC Operation Orders #10. Regarding the relief of 50th Division RAMC by 1st Canadian Division.

This adds that Bedford House will be relieved in the evening 1/4/16. Although from (a) we know British staff didn't leave till 2/4/16.

 

c.

The service records B.103 indicates that the Canadians evacuated him to 17 CCS 2/4/16.

By 'evacuated' they mean they discharged him from the MDS into the next part of the evacuation process rather than they actually evacuated him themselves to CCS.

 

WO95/2815/2 page 61 point 58 says 'wounded will be evacuated from dressing station by 4 MAC'.

 

They use the terms advanced dressing station and dressing station, the latter being the MDS at Vlamertinge.

 

Sadly, the diary for 4 MAC is missing the early part of 1916, unless TNA have the dates wrong.

TEW

 

Edited 12 April , 2021 by TEW

[Mansell]

 

 

TEW,

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

Could you point out the reference you gave me previously (29/3/21):

 

It was put upon the OC of #2 Northumbrian FA (Bedford House) to get all British wounded to CCS sometime on the 2nd even though they had handed over the ADS the previous evening.

 

I’ve searched but just cannot see that.

 

I’ve looked at the Canadian map reference for RAP I.33.a.4.1.

 

This RAP is on the south bank of the canal, as you say.

 

However, the Canadian map I attached in my post of 22/3/21 shows the RAP on the north side of the canal bank and this (north bank) position is also identical to the Australian map attached to my post 11/4/21 which shows two RAP’s close to each other, being ‘Spoilbank’ on the south bank and the ‘Bluff’ on the north bank.

 

Would you say, on balance, the RAP on the north side (i.e. close to if not virtually at Gordon Terrace) was in situ on 2 April 1916, even though not one pf those listed in the four Canadian RAP map references given in your post of 28 March?

 

 

Do you not read page 76 W095/2824/2 as struck through the date 2 April (i.e. British left on 1 April, as entered for that date)?

 

The service records point (Canadians evacuated Henry to 17 CCS 2/4/16), I now see the reference to 4 MAC you give.  Was this a British unit? 

 

 Thank you,

 

Mansell

[Bob Davies]

On 22/03/2021 at 16:37, TEW said:

From there the journey was by Ambulance Car, I presume this was a Motor Ambulance Convoy (MAC) but no number for the unit. The cars took the wounded by road to the 8 Corps Main Dressing Station (CMDS) at The Prison, Ypres I.7.b.11.10 also run by 1/1 Northumbrian FA. Can’t say if he was treated at both the ADS and the CMDS, the later would also serve as a staging post for the next part of the evacuation so not everyone who arrived at The Prison, Ypres was being admitted to the CMDS.

@MansellWhile looking for other locations in Ypres I came across this picture. The prison in Ypres. It may be of help/interest? The description of the postcard translates via google to; "This is the entrance to the prison in the Elverdingestraat. It consisted of a first gate that opened onto the street (not shown in the photo), behind it a short gatehouse and a second (wrought) gate that opened onto the courtyard. Behind it we see this courtyard with the entrance to the actual prison complex. At the back it says: "Receiving 4031 wounded". Notice the beautiful forged gate and sewer cover. The current prison has been completely rebuilt on this design. The caption refers to a prison cell. The back of the postcard refers to the hiding place of the English town master (Town-Major) and the door reads "receiving room for wounded"." Regards, Bob. https://westhoekverbeeldt.be/ontdek/detail/e3e96804-bbc5-11e3-9178-a34ec5976355/media/8c2f652b-206f-de47-f814-305b6532ba30?mode=detail&view=horizontal&q=Ypres&rows=1&page=865

Edited 30 July , 2021 by Bob Davies

[Mansell]

Thank you Bob, very kind of you to send on this information.

[Bob Davies]

On 04/08/2021 at 21:54, Mansell said:

Thank you Bob, very kind of you to send on this information.

Happy to help Mansel, there are a lot of cross references in the thousands of posts on here in the GWF. I was looking for references earlier on in the war and came across your post and thought it is best to share. I hope it helps you in your searches. Regards, Bob.