Albert Edward Mansell DLI

[Mansell]

Hello, I am new to GWF and wonder if anybody could please help with research for an episode in my Grandfather's WW1 service.

 

My grandfather, Pte Albert Edward Mansell, (C Coy 8th DLI) rescued his Captain (F C H Carpenter) on Whit Monday 1915. Shellfire had collapsed the trench they occupied and the Captain was hit by shell fragments and also buried in the earth.  This was in the line just east of Potijze / St Jean.  My grandfather extricated the Captain and managed to get him to Brielen.  He survived, though with serious wounds to his arm (shoulder) and jaw.  I am trying to find out whether the hospital / CCS records are available for the Brielen post where Capt Carpenter was admitted.  It seems there was more than one such post in the area but if anybody could help me trace a record of Capt Carpenter's admission / treatment I would be extremely grateful.

 

In case it is of use to anyone, I have the published histories of the 8th DLI (with maps) the 18th DLI and the 6th DLI.  I would be more than happy to scan any pages from these books or check for details.

 

Thank you all. 

 

 

[DavidOwen]

Welcome to the forum

 

I have split your post off into a thread of its own as that is more likely to attract the attention you need to obtain help from the forum members.

 

Good luck in your research.

[Swinesheadvillage]

Hi Mansell

 

I can't help with the Brielen area, but FMP has a medical record showing the admission of FCH (Frederick Charles Hampshire) Carpenter to the military hospital at Millbank on 3rd June 1915, discharged 21st July, GSW Jaw.

 

His MIC is attached courtesy of the NA. Apologies if you know all this.

 

 

Thanks to your Grandfather's courage, Frederick survived, married Gwendolen Drysdale in 1916, had a long career as a member of the Stock Exchange and died in 1960 at the age of 80.

 

Kind Regards

 

Derek

[Mansell]

Thank you Derek, that’s extremely helpful, I’m very grateful. Could you tell me what ‘FMP’ stands for and how I could get a copy of the record you mention? Thanks again. 
Mansell

[Michelle Young]

FMP is Find My Past, a subscription site where you will find records. 

[Mansell]

Thank you!

[Swinesheadvillage]

Hi Mansell

 

I have sent you a message

 

Kind Regards

 

Derek

[TEW]

A couple of points, I think according to the MIC Carpenter was a Lieut. when with DLI?

 

Mansell shows in two casualty lists, daily lists of 3/6/1915 'suffering from gas' and again 27/10/1916 wounded.

 

Lieut. Carpenter shows on daily list of 2/6/1915 wounded. No doubt the two June 1915 lists relate to the rescue incident.

 

#300329 Mansell also has a 'floating' sheet on FMP which probably relates to an aspect of one of the above incidents.

 

Then things get awkward.

 

Whit Monday 1915 = 24/5/1915.

151 infantry brigade (& 8/DLI) were attached to 28th division 22/5/15 and were still with them on 24th.

 

ADMS of 28 division notes that the Northumbrian field ambulances of 50th division were dealing with their own troops attached to 28 division. This includes 8/DLI.

 

They were running dressing stations at Ecole Bienfaisance and Ypres, Asylum.

 

The Ecole is just East of Ypres and not far from Potijze. The Asylum is just West of Ypres.

 

From there they were to evacuate to Hoograff which is about 2 miles south of Poperinge. Not come across Hoograff before but it may be a railway staging post for the CCS groups at Hazebrouck & Bailleul.

 

Nothing I'm afraid for Brielen, no CCS there until 1918 and no mention in the 50th & 28th medical diaries for May 1915. Not really in the right direction either.

 

On another technical point, the medical evacuation arrangements forbid men helping other men. He may have got Carpenter to a RAP or got the assistance of bearers but once Carpenter was in the hands of the RAMC or regimental bearers Mansell's part in the rescue was done. It's virtually certain Mansell could not help Carpenter to a dressing station or CCS.

 

However, we know that both men are on casualty lists of almost the same date. It could be that Mansell suffered from gas during the rescue and was evacuated along with Carpenter in which case the two would be together for longer and perhaps Mansell helped to a degree en route.

 

Where does the reference to Brielen come from? Could it be Bailleul?

TEW

 

 

[Swinesheadvillage]

Hi TEW

 

To clear up the MIC, he was Lieut 8th DLI,, Capt Durh LI.

 

That's a very good point about the evacuation process and one I will remember for the future. Thank you

 

Kind Regards

 

Derek

 

 

 

 

[Mansell]

TEW and Derek,

 

Thank you for the time and trouble taken to respond to these queries, your assistance and information is much very much appreciated, I assure you. 

 

I'd be very grateful for the casualty lists you mention TEW, I have never been able to find anything like that.

 

Also, could you let me know what a 'floating' sheet is and whether you have this for my grandfather?

 

The Brielen point is the only thing I've questioned about Albert Mansell's account of the Capt Carpenter rescue (there are other details which construct a full picture of the journey back to a hospital, concluding with the Medical Officers asking whether he wished to stay with Carpenter thinking he was his batman / servant). 

 

When I've looked at the maps, Brielen struck me as the wrong direction, as you say, and too far for with the state of the jaw wound ('an awful sight' according to my grandfather) but Carpenter gave the directions and was walking when they came upon some Belgian Gendarmeries who directed them on further.   

 

TEW, when you checked the 50th & 28th medical diaries for May 1915, could you tell me whether it was casualty names you looked at, or locations of hospitals etc?  

 

Would there be any diaries or records for other aid posts/dressing stations and the like (e.g. Ecole Bienfaisance)?

 

Once again, thank you very much.

 

Mansell

 

 

[TEW]

The casualty lists I mentioned are printed in The Times of those dates. My access is via TheGenealogist. Some libraries offer access possibly from home at present. Otherwise not entirely sure of other access.

 

The 'floating' sheet I mentioned is my terminology for a single sheet in a soldier's service relating to that man but has unconnected information on the reverse. Shortage of paper at the time and an early form of recycling. The reverse sides have been indexed by find my past but not ancestry.

 

They can cover a variety of subjects but seem to mainly be lists of sick, wounded, killed, missing, recovering etc. They can included admissions to hospitals or other medical institutions.

 

The sheet will be on Ancestry but without knowing whose file it's in find my past is the only option.

 

Diaries do not list admissions etc, they had separate books for admissions to clearing stations, hospitals ambulance trains etc. so there was no need to double up.

 

All but a handful of these Admission books were destroyed in the 1970s, but NB. Carpenter has such an entry for Millbank Hospital.

 

Dressing stations such as Ecole Bienfaisance were run by field ambulances so they only kept a diary and again kept an admission book that is now lost.

 

In short there are no registers of all wounded. There could be uncatalogued material at TNA but only a selection.

 

I still can't really square up the idea that the two wounded men simply walked off from their trench system eventually needing directions from the local Gendarmerie to a medical post. Even more bizarre if they did wander as far as Brielen. Technically this would be desertion.

 

The batman part once at an Medical post is plausible although we don't know if this a front line post or a CCS. Keeping quite and playing along with being his batman sounds a good plan!

 

Not saying the story is wrong but I'm pretty sure Brielen has to be wrong.

 

If the story was written up later as a memoir events can get a bit muddled sometimes. Perhaps he was in Brielen later and confused it with Bailleul in 1915?

TEW

 

[Mansell]

TEW, thank you very much for this additional information.  

 

Do you have links to the casualty information for my grandfather you could let me have.  I'll never be able to find these myself unfortunately?

 

The only wound I have any real knowledge of is when my grandfather was hit by shellfire and suffered a badly injured leg at Passchendaele in December 1917 which invalided him out of service.    

 

Thank you once again for your interest and assistance.

 

[TEW]

I could supply links to Thegenealogist but it is is a paid subscription site. The lists are very basic - Name, Initial, Rank & Number under a regimental heading.

 

There may be free resources to The Times, which County are you in?

 

Unless you think the subscription is worthwhile?

 

Can't say I'm even certain which package you'd need, Gold or Diamond it would be £38.95 or £139.95!

TEW

[Mansell]

 

Thank you TEW, I'm in Manchester, and wouldnt know where to begin to look for the Times.

 

Is it possible for you to download the pages from the Casualty Lists for me?

 

Thank you.

[Michelle Young]

From the forum rules

Members may NOT use the GWF as a platform to ask parties who are subscribers to various subscription sites to download material on their behalf or to post it on the GWF.

[TEW]

Mansell,

Perhaps I should have explained the forum rules myself.

 

I've checked Manchester Libraries and they offer free access to Ancestry and Findmypast. Some libraries seem to be open and others will no doubt re-open soon.

 

The lists of open and closed libraries is https://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory/14/libraries

 

If you don't have a library card you can apply through the same site.

 

The 'floating' sheets I mentioned previously can be accessed through the library & FMP.

 

It's possible the Casualty Lists I've mentioned were reproduced in Regional Newspapers, if so FMP and the library may hold the answer.

 

TEW

[Mansell]

TEW,

 

Thank you for replying and apologies for not knowing the rule about downloading. 

 

I'm new to the forum and understand rules need to be in place and I've taken note.

 

Its very kind of you to research the local library and I will follow that up.

 

On the floating sheet, I've re-read your earlier post - could you suggest the search term I need to use?  

 

It seems it might need to be more than simply the name 'Mansell'.

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TEW]

The simplest way is to log into FMP.

 

Via the search function locate the 'Military, armed forces and conflicts' section.

 

That should take you to a more specific search page.

 

I just added Mansell as the Last Name and 300329 as Soldier Number.

 

That produces 3 results, one listed as British Army Service Records. Mansell AE.

 

Exactly what it is I can't say but with the absence of a year of birth it is probably a list of Sick & Wounded. Could be admitted to medical units in France or UK, could also be a progress list as to his condition.

 

There are other things it could be but I think a Sick & Wounded list is the most likely. Hopefully it is a full sheet, sometimes you only get half the sheet which is frustrating.

TEW

[Mansell]

 

 

TEW,

 

Thank you once again.  I have some more questions but don’t want these to seem like an imposition on just you.  If I should be posting on a different part of the forum please let me know.

 

The background is I have collected up from my extended family across the country every document and photograph which relates to the Great War service of my grandfather and his brothers.  I aim to make a photobook with scans of every item I’ve been given.

 

My grandfather’s brother Henry Mansell died of wounds on 3 April 1916.  This is recorded in the book by E H Veitch, History of the 8^th Durham Light Infantry (attached below).  However, the Battalion field diary does not mention Henry by name as a casualty.  I suppose Veitch either knew from personal experience about this or was told by former-servicemen when he was researching the book in the 1920’s.   What do you think?

 

I have managed to find out quite a lot about Henry Mansell, but much less about Albert Mansell (my grandfather).  For example, the 17 CCS diary records the death of Henry.  But Albert Mansell was seriously wounded at Passchendaele in December 1917 and I cannot find any record of him being admitted to a CCS as I think must have happened because he was brought back to England and was in Hospital at Edmonton and Pinner Place VAD for some time.   Do you think records exist and what would you advise I should search for on that point. 

 

The appearance of Albert Mansell in the casualty lists you mention are obviously not for the serious wounds of 1917, so I wonder is there anything in the casualty lists for him for 1917 (I know he had 3 wound stripes)?

 

I tried to attach pictures of Henry Mansell and Albert Mansell in uniform but it seems the files were too large.

 

As I mentioned in my first post, anybody is very welcome to scans of any pages from the Veitch DLI book or the maps.

 

I am very grateful for your assistance on this, its invaluable. 

 

 

 

 

[TEW]

Veitch's history was published in 1926, apart from corresponding with other officers etc present at the time he could have accessed other records destroyed or bombed since then.

 

Soldiers Died In The Great War was published in 1921 so could have used that source for Henry.

 

I think for Albert pretty much all avenues have been covered. National Archives has some as yet un-indexed records but only of a small sample. There may be items in private collections out there for Edmonton & Pinner but overall there is not much to go on.

 

Newspapers are another possibility, available through Findmypast or British Newspaper Archives, not sure if their coverage is identical.

 

Albert's December 1917 wound.

 

I did notice nothing was coming up for this. You would expect a notice in the Casualty Lists by the end of January 1918. Publication in these lists was the main criteria for receiving a wound stripe. Two are accounted for, third is being problematic.

 

He's not the first man on forum to have evidence for a wound stripe but no listing. He may have a listing that's badly printed or a name & number typo. Or his listing may have been delayed (lost?). I've tried various combinations and found nothing via TheGenealogist to April 1918 or FMP's index which has later coverage but are missing some lists.

 

I have a photo of a soldier wounded 31st Dec 1917 displaying a wound stripe in early 1919. I manually went through the Casualty Lists from 1/1/18 to about March and did not find him, still something of a mystery. Wonder now if the Dec 1917 date is a coincidence or part of the problem?

 

It is possible to manually trawl the Casualty Lists from 1/1/18. I've not found a satisfactory way of searching them via this site.

The publications are known as Weekly Lists which contain a number of Daily Lists. Weekly List #22 of 1/1/18 starts with Daily List 5449 of 22/12/1917. They are then arranged into regiments or units under a wounded column. There could be secondary lists of those 'previously reported missing now reported wounded' or similar.

 

You'd have to trawl through the Weekly Lists #22 - #27 to cover all the lists to 2/2/1918. One week at a time and have a break is my advice if you do trawl them.

 

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/144481815

 

TEW

 

 

[Mansell]

PASSCHENDAELE MAP - 8th BATT DLI.pdf

 

TEW,

 

That's tremendously helpful, thank you.

 

It's particularly useful because it basically means I can move on with this project and stop searching for what probably doesnt exist. 

 

The Casualty Lists for the period  you mention I have searched, as coincidentally my friend's grandfather (Queens Royal Surrey) was mortally wounded in virtually the same location as Albert Mansell, just a week or two before and he is named in the lists.  As you say its in 1918, but I could not find Albert anywhere (eyestrain had set in so I'd better re-check). 

 

Actually, it was this friend who gave me the link to those casualty lists on the web, free, which is why I'd supposed you'd be able to provide the link too, not that I was aware of the rules here anyhow.

 

Albert's Discharge Scroll shows the usual 'disabled in the Great War' and the first two of his wounds were not disabling, the third certainly was (I have no idea if this scroll was issued for any wound, or whether a certain medical threshold was required, or perhaps on the award of a pension, which Albert did receive). 

 

I've tried to attach a map of the Passchendaele sector as a PDF but not sure if its visible.  This shows where Albert was seriously wounded. Would you know which CCS (or which likely CCS's) Albert would have reached before repatriation and whether the records still exist for such CCS?

 

That will probably be my last line of enquiry I think before getting back to completing this family archive. 

 

(Of possible interest, a third brother, Tim Mansell, was in RAMC, awarded the MM for bringing 2 wounded men in from No Mans Land.) 

 

As ever, I'm extremely grateful for your very informative replies.

 

Thank you.  

 

 

[TEW]

Forum rules prevent requests for look ups from paid subscription sites plus it would get flooded with requests if it was allowed.

 

NLS are free so are not subject to the same rules. I've never found a way to search NLS other than using a Google advanced search against their transcriptions which are not always that good. Trawling NLS website was a last ditch suggestion really. Tiring on the eyes as well.

 

My searchable resource is a paid up account so I can't supply anything from there if it's requested!

 

I can take a look over the weekend as to a potential CCS for Albert and anything to add to the evacuation route.

TEW 

[TEW]

Mansell,

 

I’ve looked through the medical diaries available for 50th Division, their field ambulances and diary for 8 Corps.

 

Bearing in mind there’s no precise date I’ve checked the 8/DLI diary and they were only in the line 19/12/17 – 24/12/1917, luckily there are no changes to the medical scheme in that period.

 

50th Division Diary has one sheet that says it all really, not only lists all the points of the evacuation route from the forward RAP at Tyne Cott back to the CCS group at Remy Siding it also describes the methodology and the personnel involved.

 

Not sure how good your map reading is but from 10/12/17 the arrangements for stretcher cases are;

 

Tmapper.  leave the 28. in place and paste in the below EG 28.D.17.a.3.2

 

All on sheet 28.

 

Regimental Aid Post (RAP). Tyne Cott D.17.a.3.2 then by RAMC hand carriage on a duck board track 3½ miles long to Frost House D.25.a.6.0 with two relay posts in-between at Levi Cott and Mitchell’s Farm.

 

Frost House was the Advanced Dressing Station (ADS) run by the 1/1 Northumbrian FA.

 

From there the journey was by Ambulance Car, I presume this was a Motor Ambulance Convoy (MAC) but no number for the unit. The cars took the wounded by road to the 8 Corps Main Dressing Station (CMDS) at The Prison, Ypres I.7.b.11.10 also run by 1/1 Northumbrian FA. Can’t say if he was treated at both the ADS and the CMDS, the later would also serve as a staging post for the next part of the evacuation so not everyone who arrived at The Prison, Ypres was being admitted to the CMDS.

 

20 MAC then took the wounded on to the Remy Siding group of CCSs to the south west of Poperinghe. There were three functioning CCSs here, they rotated admissions with each other and evacuated wounded to bases ASAP. We have no precise date and cannot say which CCS he was admitted to but to give an idea for the period 19/12/17 – 24/12/1917 I’ll add the following given for British wounded.

 

10 CCS. admitted 151, 2 Canadian CCS admitted 41, 3 Canadian CCS admitted 565. Clearly 3 Canadian CCS did the bulk of the work with the most admissions. Three Ambulance Trains (AT) evacuated wounded from this group during the same period. NB. I’ve added a later journey for AT #22.

 

AT #25 left Remy Siding at 18:00 hrs on the 19th having loaded 207 bound for Etaples, arriving there at 04:50 on the 20th. He would have had to have been wounded early on the 19th to be on this AT.

 

AT #30 left Remy at 15:35 21st having loaded 109 wounded, circuitous route to Etaples, arrived there early on 22nd.

 

AT #32 left Remy Siding 15:15 23rd having loaded 104 wounded, for Wimeruex.

 

AT #30 left Remy siding 16:50 24th having loaded 209 for Wimereux arriving early on 25th.

 

There is also AT #22 which left Remy siding having loaded 102 wounded at 18:05 26th for Wimereux.

 

Almost impossible to know which of the above trains took him from Remy Siding. A CCS tried to evacuate and make space ASAP, some wounded could be evacuated the same day as admitted, others perhaps the following day. The only exception to this is where a man is too badly wounded to travel in which case he would be retained until fit to travel.

 

You are left though with Etaples or Wimereux as the bases he was evacuated to. However, although these both have base hospitals he could have been admitted to he may also have been loaded onto a Hospital Ship the same day and shipped home. Another possibility is EG. AT #30 arrived at Etaples on the 22nd, another AT left Etaples for Calais the same day, not impossible to be on that train.

 

TEW

 

[Mansell]

Thank you very much indeed TEW, this is brilliant.  I'll study it closely as soon as I can, hopefully make a start tonight. 

 

I'm very grateful to you.

 

 

 

[Mansell]

TEW,

 

This all fits with my grandfather's memoir:

 

I managed to make the dressing station and the first thing they gave me was a pot of tea laced with rum. They put me on a stretcher and some RAMC fellows came and carted me off.  They had a tough job and to make it worse Jerry started shelling all Gravenstafel ridge. They got me to Poperinghe and took me straight in to the operating theatre.  After two days they sent me to Wimereux for one week, and then to England.  I was in hospital for quite a while in Edmonton, London, and then to Pinner, Middlesex on crutches. 

 

So Frost House would have been the ADS (though of course, my grandfather might have used the term 'dressing station' in a looser sense when in fact meaning the RAP)?

 

Is the 50 Div page you mention a subscription item again so I cant ask or access it?

 

In terms of Remy Siding CCS, given my great-uncle is named in its records (death 3.4.16) do you think there a record for my grandfather's 2 days admission there, and would it mention him by name?

 

And the same for Wimereux Base Hospital, for the week?

 

Is the 1/1 Northumbrian FA diary online?

 

The information you have kindly provided is fascinating and I am very grateful for your patience and giving me the benefit of your obviously vast knowledge of the subject.

 

Thank you.