French Bayonet Markings

[Gunner 87]

Hi Guys. I am assisting with the identification of this French Gras M1874 bayonet. I understand the 'AC' in italics followed by G372 is a serial number which should be replicated on the scabbard. In the absence of a manufacturers mark on the blade, does 'AC' give any clue as to which company produced this bayonet? In addition, are the poincon on the ricasso and cross guard inspection stamps?  @JMB1943 @4thGordons Many thanks in advance. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 11 March , 2021 by Gunner 87

[4thGordons]

Way out of my area of expertise I am afraid! There is a member @N White who can probably assist.

 

Am I to understand there is no maker's name along the spine of the blade (usually in cursive script)

 

Really my only reference on these is an issue of Gazette des Armes (Hors-seriie No 7) - this does refer to the marks as "Poincons de controle et de reception" and it would appear the letter corresponds to the surname of the Director / Controller of the plant producing the bayonet so that might help track them down- the article only illustrates M (Maldan) and S (Sprenger) who were at Chatellerault from 1873-1876. 

Sorry not much help,

Chris

 

[N White]

I am summoned!

 

AC6372 is the serial of the gun it was paired with.

 

By the script type prefix and letter combo we can know it was a Chatellerault made 1874, and not a 1866-74 conversion.  The bayonet would likely be as well, but not necessarily... 

 

Per "Chassepot to Famas" (which Ian from Forgotten Weapons just announced is being reprinted!) the two ovals on the ricasso are the initials of the General Controller and Arsenal Director.

 

I see R and B, which seems to line up with Jean-Marie Brenier (Controller 1874-1893) and Jean Reallon (Director 1875-1883) at Chatellerault, if I am reading the tables correctly.  So, likely a Chatellerault bayonet.

 

AC6372 (the gun) would have been late 1881 production, again per the book.

 

You should absolutely have a spine marking, has it been scrubbed?

 

4th Gordons, (and others), Ian's book is WELL worth the price, and the first 355 pages (about 2/3 of it) are ww1 and earlier guns, with copious marking and serialization tables.

 

 

 

[4thGordons]

1 hour ago, N White said:

4th Gordons, (and others), Ian's book is WELL worth the price, and the first 355 pages (about 2/3 of it) are ww1 and earlier guns, with copious marking and serialization tables.

 

 

 

 

Well it looks like I got some of it right!

 

Thanks for the suggestion on the book. I am currently trying to dispose of a large collection of militaria related books so I might get funny looks if I go an buy a new one - but I am sorely lacking on French reference works so having looked up the book it does look like it would be a useful investment.

Chris

[JMB1943]

I am very happy that N White stepped in, because I have absolutely no knowledge of the French Bayonets.

However, I will post that my M 1874 Gras bayonet, made at Chatellerault in February 1879, does have the R & B stamps each in an oval.

The rifle number is C97093.

 

Regards,

JMB

[N White]

Guys, I think I have a problem...

 

(Old pic. Have more now)

 

C97093 should be 1879 production (C50001-AB16000)

[AndyBsk]

N.White did excellent research from AC6XXX stamp it should be paired with Gras M1874 rifle from Chatellerault.

[Gunner 87]

10 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Way out of my area of expertise I am afraid! There is a member @N White who can probably assist.

 

Am I to understand there is no maker's name along the spine of the blade (usually in cursive script)

 

Really my only reference on these is an issue of Gazette des Armes (Hors-seriie No 7) - this does refer to the marks as "Poincons de controle et de reception" and it would appear the letter corresponds to the surname of the Director / Controller of the plant producing the bayonet so that might help track them down- the article only illustrates M (Maldan) and S (Sprenger) who were at Chatellerault from 1873-1876. 

Sorry not much help,

Chris

 

 

10 hours ago, N White said:

I am summoned!

 

AC6372 is the serial of the gun it was paired with.

 

By the script type prefix and letter combo we can know it was a Chatellerault made 1874, and not a 1866-74 conversion.  The bayonet would likely be as well, but not necessarily... 

 

Per "Chassepot to Famas" (which Ian from Forgotten Weapons just announced is being reprinted!) the two ovals on the ricasso are the initials of the General Controller and Arsenal Director.

 

I see R and B, which seems to line up with Jean-Marie Brenier (Controller 1874-1893) and Jean Reallon (Director 1875-1883) at Chatellerault, if I am reading the tables correctly.  So, likely a Chatellerault bayonet.

 

AC6372 (the gun) would have been late 1881 production, again per the book.

 

You should absolutely have a spine marking, has it been scrubbed?

 

4th Gordons, (and others), Ian's book is WELL worth the price, and the first 355 pages (about 2/3 of it) are ww1 and earlier guns, with copious marking and serialization tables.

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

I am very happy that N White stepped in, because I have absolutely no knowledge of the French Bayonets.

However, I will post that my M 1874 Gras bayonet, made at Chatellerault in February 1879, does have the R & B stamps each in an oval.

The rifle number is C97093.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

Gentleman, thank you very much for your detailed and helpful response. It's very much appreciated. Gunner 87

 

 

[ColonelKlink1942]

On 10/03/2021 at 19:29, N White said:

I am summoned!

 

AC6372 is the serial of the gun it was paired with.

 

By the script type prefix and letter combo we can know it was a Chatellerault made 1874, and not a 1866-74 conversion.  The bayonet would likely be as well, but not necessarily... 

 

Per "Chassepot to Famas" (which Ian from Forgotten Weapons just announced is being reprinted!) the two ovals on the ricasso are the initials of the General Controller and Arsenal Director.

 

I see R and B, which seems to line up with Jean-Marie Brenier (Controller 1874-1893) and Jean Reallon (Director 1875-1883) at Chatellerault, if I am reading the tables correctly.  So, likely a Chatellerault bayonet.

 

AC6372 (the gun) would have been late 1881 production, again per the book.

 

You should absolutely have a spine marking, has it been scrubbed?

 

4th Gordons, (and others), Ian's book is WELL worth the price, and the first 355 pages (about 2/3 of it) are ww1 and earlier guns, with copious marking and serialization tables.

 

 

 

@N White (sorry for the double summon/ping)

I could use your help as well. Went to a gun show a few weeks ago, and purchased this M1874 Gras bayonet. Serial numbers on the scabbard and the bayonet all match. It has the "Manufactured at St. Etienne, January 1878" inscription on the spine of the blade, and yet the serial number's letter prefix doesn't coincide with the prefixes that St. Etienne used.

I read what you noted here a couple of years ago, and took a look at Ian McCollum's book on French rifles, which helped somewhat but didn't totally answer my queries. What I believe I know is that my Gras bayonet was likely paired with an M1874 Gras infantry rifle, not a Gendarmarie carbine, cavalry carbine, or artillery musketoon. It has an "A" prefix before the serial number "1999", although St. Etienne used F, G, H, I, K, L, M, N, P, Q, FG, FH, and it was Chatellerault that used A, B, C, AB, AC, BC (as per McCollum's "Chassepot to FAMAS"). It also has the letter "M" in all the ovals that I can see, but I haven't had any luck finding out who it was that was Director or Controller during this time that had those initials.

Any help or insight would be most appreciated!

[N White]

Nothing weird here, just neat.  This is a replacement.  Bayonets got serialed to the GUN.

The block A shows this went on a 1866-74 Chassepot conversion that was originally made at Chatellerault.  I have a few like this.  Yes usually for Gras bayonets the arsenal on the spine and the block letter matches- because the same arsenal made both and paired them- but in the case of the Chassepot conversions- anything goes.  They bought the Ursine de Steyr bayonets for the conversions, but you'll also see the Paris Oudry and L Deny ones with block serials often.  And sometimes arsenals St Etienne, like here.

I can elaborate/answer the rest more tonight after I get home. 

Edited 22 March , 2023 by N White

[AndyBsk]

Same opinion, the bayonet was serialed mostly to Chassepot M66/74 conversion made at MAC.

[ColonelKlink1942]

6 hours ago, N White said:

Nothing weird here, just neat.  This is a replacement.  Bayonets got serialed to the GUN.

The block A shows this went on a 1866-74 Chassepot conversion that was originally made at Chatellerault.  I have a few like this.  Yes usually for Gras bayonets the arsenal on the spine and the block letter matches- because the same arsenal made both and paired them- but in the case of the Chassepot conversions- anything goes.  They bought the Ursine de Steyr bayonets for the conversions, but you'll also see the Paris Oudry and L Deny ones with block serials often.  And sometimes arsenals St Etienne, like here.

I can elaborate/answer the rest more tonight after I get home. 

Yes, please! I welcome your wealth of knowledge.

As I'm a sucker for the stories of the majority of the antiques in my collection (including two other totally different bayonets), I'm also hoping that this will somehow provide me with a historical background in regard to this bayonet's service life, and its story; like where did it go? What countries did it visit? Was it used in combat/which of France's conflicts did it take part in? Which regiment(s) was it issued to? Was it merely extra surplus after a time? I wonder what the odds are that your elaboration will help me with such things.

Edited 22 March , 2023 by ColonelKlink1942
Added more info and questions.

[N White]

A1999 would be a very early Chassepot, so the original gun undoubtedly saw or survived the Franco Prussian war in some capacity.

After that, conversion was likely near the date on the bayonet, and that would be when this piece's story starts.  Most of the conversions (or bayonets with Block letter prefixes for them) are 1878-1881.  My 1866-74 rifle is 1879 converted.

 

Use in wars, not much going on while it was primary arm, and it was quickly made obsolete by the Lebel.  Lots of use in WW1, including hundreds of thousands sent to Russia.  Those that survived Russia later got sent to Spain.

Other batches went elsewhere, including Greece.  The Greeks had their own Gras, (made for them by Steyr) and you can find both Greek and French Gras bayonets modified to fit later Mannlichers.

Eventually, they get surplused, and sold.  I do not know who or when they were buying, but you can go through old surplus catalogs (Bannerman's, etc) and see who was selling what and when.

 

Ultimately, not much more to tell on your bayonet.  It does not have a Greek style serial added, (Greek serials are between crossguard rivets) so unlikely it went there.  Russian used ones can sometimes be found with an arrow stamp in the mortise slot, and rifles imported from Spain were stamped "Made in France".

Sorry I cannot narrow it to specific units or battles.  I only have a few pieces like that, and none of them are French.

 

Edited 22 March , 2023 by N White

[ColonelKlink1942]

Oooh, a very early Chassepot, that's fascinating. The fact that it's for an 1866-74 conversion alone increases the appreciation and historical value (for me at least) of this bayonet, and obviously answers why the block prefix didn't match what the St. Etienne arsenal used. Not that it not being for an M1874 Gras infantry rifle isn't important, but I like that it's for an even older rifle.

Upon reading what you mentioned with its WWI use in Russia, post-war use with Spain and later service with Greece, I took my bayonet out and studied any areas that I hadn't poured over already (including the mortise slot), and did not see any Russian or Spanish markings. Still curious about what the markings on the hilt of the bayonet near the blade (second image) are though, a "3" in an oval, an "F", and what looks like "16" or "91". Puzzling indeed.

I will see if I can find Bannerman's catalog online, and maybe spot something that would aid me, but not the end of the world if the trail goes cold there. I can't seem to figure out how it made its way to Canada outside of someone purchasing it in a flea market or antique business, or else it came back home as a war souvenir of sorts, and stayed within one family (or series of families) for generations until it was put on sale at the very gun show I was at. Foolishly I did not ask the seller what he knew about it other than it being a Gras bayonet, when I had the chance to find out more, that's my bad.

Thanks a million for the help you've given me thus far!

Edited 23 March , 2023 by ColonelKlink1942

[AndyBsk]

Hard to believe similar piece went to Russia, or to Spain, but there was not added any other markings, more real similar bayonets were stored for long time as reserve in depots, and later outsaled. In 1936 heavy use with similar obsolete rifles would be questionable. maybe only some guarding units. there was already problem with ammo.

[trajan]

On 23/03/2023 at 01:33, N White said:

A1999 would be a very early Chassepot, so the original gun undoubtedly saw or survived the Franco Prussian war in some capacity. ... Lots of use in WW1, including hundreds of thousands sent to Russia.  Those that survived Russia later got sent to Spain. Other batches went elsewhere, including Greece. 

And of course Germany, as captures! Some 600,000 or so, with 44,000 to Bavaria alone, the erst to the other German states. They mainly went to Landwehr units, who were still using them in 1914-1918... But these would have German state unit markings, usually!

Julian

[Steve1871]

Hey N.White, you did great research for these guys, your work / passion help’s us all out, I hope I will always keep learning on the forum here

P.S.  Your group pic, never a problem, need more! We Collector’s can never never have enough!! 

[ColonelKlink1942]

5 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

P.S.  Your group pic, never a problem, need more! We Collector’s can never never have enough!! 

I can vouch for that! What started off with purchasing a Pattern 1853 Enfield/Snider-Enfield socket bayonet back in September of 2022 quickly turned into nabbing a Pattern 1907 Lee Enfield No.1 Mk.I or Mk.III sword bayonet (likely in Indian service) in November, and this Gras bayonet a month ago.

 

I am hungry for more!

[Steve1871]

Sounds like Colonelklink1942 got bitten by the dreaded and fearsome COLLECTOR BUG

It makes you buy buy buy and watch the collection grow😊

[ColonelKlink1942]

Aye, I was bitten a couple of years ago. It all started with a near-mint condition 1930 Saskatchewan license plate, now I have a goulash of various antique goodies from railroad items, to documentation and books, to semi-truck and car stuff, to pocket watches, to helmets, and now to bayonets, and so on.

[Steve1871]

Good heavens Mate, you must have tripped and fallen into a whole nest of those collector bugs😱

[ColonelKlink1942]

Did some more studying and carefully looked over the bayonet earlier this morning, even a very gentle cotton-swabbing of the interior of the mortise slot, as it is full of grime and bits of debris (but I haven't fully cleaned it as I want it to be as original and "as-found" condition as possible). My efforts revealed something new and partially exciting! Another number!

As shown in the image below, though hard to totally make out, is what looks to be a "38". This is located in the mortise slot, on that leaf-spring push-button part. Part of me thinks it's an odd place for a regiment marking, but maybe it's just a part number for when it was being put together. What do you folks think?

[N White]

You will see all kinds of stuff back there.

Unfortunately, no way to know what it is.  Most of the numbers marked on studs are in a position that would be hard to do with the part installed.

Likely assembly numbers.

There are also sometimes small numbers or letters in the brass, as well as what look like more usual inspection stamps.

[ColonelKlink1942]

11 minutes ago, N White said:

Likely assembly numbers.

I thought as much. Still pretty neat to find it there though.

Your note about the other stamps in the brass (and all over the bayonet) makes sense too. There's a "3" on the ballpoint of the scabbard's tip, as is there a "3" in an oval below the blade and before the hilt curves into the quillon. I wish I could find a chart that has all these markings somewhere because outside of the knowledge you've shared with us here, I don't know what the remaining markings mean.

I suppose it adds more mystique and intrigue to the artifact though, as though there's still more of a story to be revealed and appreciated.

[N White]

Unfortunately, there is a lot we do not know.

I am currently chasing the question below- 2 French arsenal made Gras, one from St Etienne, one from Chatellerault.

 

Both are LATE, 1882 dated (production stopped in 1884) and both are 100% matching, and un messed with.

Both have the markings below on the spine.  The type and format is the same, but the marks and serials on the spines aren't anything even close to the ones marked normally on the quillion.  I have seen others like this in the past but failed to take note, looking for more.

Too many similarites for chance...

Edited 1 April , 2023 by N White