Could you identify these uniforms for me please

[Alexwfc99]

Just now, Matlock1418 said:

Date???

Hadn't he moved on from the SS by then

?

:-) M

Yeah 2nd April 1917 the letter is but he was in rifle brigade then I which is confusing 

[Matlock1418]

1914 Medal Roll from KRRC

BWM & VM Medal Roll from RB (Prince Consort's Own)

:-) M

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Alexwfc99 said:

Yeah 2nd April 1917 the letter is but he was in rifle brigade then I which is confusing 

Try to find his war and victory Medal Roll entry that links (cross references) with his medal index card, as if filled in correctly (it often isn’t) it might show his other units served with overseas.

 

3 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

1914 Medal Roll from KRRC

BWM & VM Medal Roll from RB (Prince Consort's Own)

:-) M

What battalion number?  Did he go to a Garrison Battalion of that regiment?  Quite a lot of older soldiers did.

Edited 7 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

operational units are listed in his Medal Roll

1914 Star Medal Roll:

1 KRRC  4743

BWM & VM medal roll list (in this order):

1 KRRC  4743

11 KRRC 4743

1 RB 6450

:-) M

Edited 7 March , 2021 by Matlock1418
addition

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

BWM & VM medal roll list:

1 KRRC  4743

11 KRRC 4743

1 RB 6450

:-) M

1 KRRC were regulars so it seems likely he re-enlisted with them in 1914.  Probably then to 11 KRRC, a Service Battalion formed in Winchester (the Depot for KRRC and RB) perhaps after wounding.  Then to 1 RB (another regular battalion) in the last year of the war.  Someone with knowledge of regimental numbers issuing schedules can perhaps put some flesh on bones.

 

Perhaps Lichfield is a red herring, in the sense that his family home might’ve been there, or he could have been sent to a hospital, or convalescent home there (near to home) if he’d been wounded.

Edited 7 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

1 KRRC were regulars so it seems likely he re-enlisted with them in 1914

That's what I just, later, thought might be the case for 1 KRRC

And from his 1914 Star Medal Roll / MIC he was in France as early as 13/8/1914

:-) M

Edited 7 March , 2021 by Matlock1418
addit

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

That's what I thought might be the case for 1 KRRC

And from his 1914 Star Medal Roll / MIC he was in France as early as 13/8/1914

:-) M

My guess is that he was time-expired (no commitment) with the South Staffords and enlisted with the KRRC, considered an elite unit by pre-war regulars, in 1914.

Edited 7 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

 

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

My guess is that he was time expired with the South Staffords and enlisted with the KRRC, considered an elite unit by pre-war regulars, in 1914

At risk of crossing again! - yes, seems very plausible.

Your earlier ideas of regimental numbers seems sound

Let's hope someone can help us try and date them.

;-) M

[Alexwfc99]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

1 KRRC were regulars so it seems likely he re-enlisted with them in 1914.  Probably then to 11 KRRC, a Service Battalion formed in Winchester (the Depot for KRRC and RB) perhaps after wounding.  Then to 1 RB (another regular battalion) in the last year of the war.  Someone with knowledge of regimental numbers issuing schedules can perhaps put some flesh on bones.

 

Perhaps Lichfield is a red herring, in the sense that his family home might’ve been there, or he could have been sent to a hospital, or convalescent home there (near to home) if he’d been wounded.

Yeah this makes sense now as he was from willenhall which is 20 mins from Lichfield 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Alexwfc99 said:

Yeah this makes sense now as he was from willenhall which is 20 mins from Lichfield 

That seems the most likely scenario then.  He might well have been mentioned in the local newspaper if you look it up in the press archives, which are searchable.  It was very common to mention local men who’d been wounded and recorded as being in hospital.  It was the equivalent of Facebook back then and how people gossiped and picked up local news.

[Alexwfc99]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

That seems the most likely scenario then.  He might well have been mentioned in the local newspaper if you look it up in the press archives, which are searchable.  It was very common to mention local men who’d been wounded and recorded as being in hospital.  It was the equivalent of Facebook back then and how people gossiped and picked up local news.

When I tried to research him before I did find he was wounded 

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Alexwfc99 said:

When I tried to research him before I did find he was wounded

Almost a perfect fit then, you just need to link up the date of wounding and search local newspaper archives.  It is extremely likely that after wounding he went to 11th Bn KRRC I think.

 It’s then a matter of seeing how he might have ended up with 1st RB by the end of the war.

 

It seems possible to me that the photo with the Australian soldier and British soldier might have been taken in Britain, perhaps whilst they were convalescing.  Once out of hospital and in the final stages of convalescing they were no longer obligated to wear hospital blue.

Edited 7 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, Alexwfc99 said:

When I tried to research him before I did find he was wounded

Shame your photo is so faded - we probably would have seen he had a wound stripe on his left forearm.

:-) M

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

At risk of crossing again! - yes, seems very plausible.

Your earlier ideas of regimental numbers seems sound

Let's hope someone can help us try and date them.

;-) M

@MBrockway would be the best person to look up the KRRC connection, he has an extensive database if I recall correctly.

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

@MBrockway would be the best person to look up the KRRC connection, he has an extensive database if I recall correctly.

Yes, would seem the right man with his KRRC interests - your mention should probably bring him along soon(ish)

;-) M

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Yes, would seem the right man with his KRRC interests - your mention should probably bring him along soon(ish)

;-) M

I’ve not seen him in the forum for a while, I think he possibly favours the WW1 Facebook group now, but hopefully the shout out will draw his attention.

Edited 7 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

Certainly I need a hand - looking at the  armyservicenumbers https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/06/kings-royal-rifle-corps-regular.html has left me rather puzzled

[I always struggle with it - my problem I expect]

:-) M

[Alexwfc99]

Thanks for you help by the way boys, cleared a lot of air on the pictures regiments etc, thanks a lot 

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Matlock1418 said:

Certainly I need a hand - looking at the  armyservicenumbers https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/06/kings-royal-rifle-corps-regular.html has left me rather puzzled

[I always struggle with it - my problem I expect]

:-) M

Not my scene....

[Pat Atkins]

Just a thought: Paul Nixon's excellent blog suggest this as one possibility (though army service numbers are a bit of a minefield) for his 4-digit number - recording prefixes, even in the most scrupulous-kept documents, seems to have been pretty hit and miss.  Or, he'd enlisted with that number as a KRRC Regular in 1902/3...

 

"Britain went to war with Germany. When it did so, new recruits to the KRRC were not given numbers from the series from that being used by the regular battalions. Instead, according to their status (for want of a better word), and the battalions they were joining, they were given numbers from several new series, these numbers prefixed with different letters. So A/ prefix men (up to the low 3900s at least) were Army Reservists who had been discharged or whose numbers had been re-allocated and who were now re-enlisting."

[FROGSMILE]

35 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

Just a thought: Paul Nixon's excellent blog suggest this as one possibility (though army service numbers are a bit of a minefield) for his 4-digit number - recording prefixes, even in the most scrupulous-kept documents, seems to have been pretty hit and miss.  Or, he'd enlisted with that number as a KRRC Regular in 1902/3...

 

"Britain went to war with Germany. When it did so, new recruits to the KRRC were not given numbers from the series from that being used by the regular battalions. Instead, according to their status (for want of a better word), and the battalions they were joining, they were given numbers from several new series, these numbers prefixed with different letters. So A/ prefix men (up to the low 3900s at least) were Army Reservists who had been discharged or whose numbers had been re-allocated and who were now re-enlisting."

Pat it makes quite clear in the thread that the sergeant, who during WW1 was in the KRRC and RB, had enlisted with the 3rd (Militia) Battalion South Staffordshire Regiment in 1903.

Edited 7 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

Yes, I was really only refering to that by way of covering all bases according to the blog post on KRRC numbering. To be honest, the missing prefix theory isn't entirely convincing either.

[MBrockway]

 

On 08/03/2021 at 02:54, FROGSMILE said:

@MBrockway would be the best person to look up the KRRC connection, he has an extensive database if I recall correctly.

 

Apologies - I'm not on the GWF as much these days and didn't know about this topic till Andy tipped me off.

 

 

On 08/03/2021 at 02:07, Alexwfc99 said:

That’s right yeah he joined 3bn south Staffordshire regiment in 1902 as well so I don’t know how he ended up in the rifles? 

 

What's your evidence for William ASH joining the 3rd Bn South Staffs (Militia) in 1902 and what's your source for the associated number 6912 you mention?

 

I ask this because Ash's KRRC Service Number of 4743 would typically point to a KRRC Regular enlisting in Spring/Summer 1902.  In 1902 all four KRRC Regular battalions were overseas.

 

It's possible he joined the Militia to see how he liked the military life and having taken to it, decided to resign from the militia and join as a Regular - I certainly have some examples of this in other KRRC ORs.

 

Terms were usually 5 years with the Colours and 7 years on the Reserve meaning he would have returned to civvy street as a Reservist in approx 1907-8 for the remaining 7 years of his twelve.  Thus he would have been recalled from the Reserve at the start of the War in Aug 1914.  It is also possible he opted to stay in the KRRC when his Colour Service expired, rather than going into Reserve.  It was not unusual for riflemen to extend their service like this.  However I can find him in neither 1/KRRC nor 2/KRRC in the UK in 1911.  I haven't looked for him with 3/ and 4/KRRC out in India in 1911.

 

He went out to France & Flanders on 13 Aug 1914 with rank Rifleman in 1/KRRC.  That's the date the battalion as a whole embarked, so he went out with the battalion rather than joined them in the Field.

At some point Ash was posted to 11/KRRC - one of the K2 battalions.  Since he had gone out as an Old Contemptible, this posting is most likely to have been following a spell in Blighty, wounded, or sick.

 

He is then transferred to the 1st Bn., The Rifle Brigade with a new Service Number of 6450 and ends the war as a Sergeant.

 

As you posted higher up, he appears as Wounded in Casualty List #5411 reported on 08 Nov 1917.  Since he's reported with SN of 6450 I assumed he was already with 1/RB by this time.  This is confirmed by the actual List:

 

 

At this stage he has made Corporal.

 

As before, his move to the RB is likely to have been on his return to duties after a spell back in Blighty due to a wounding or to sickness.

 

Andy may be able to add something about the circumstances of Ash's wounding with 1/RB in November 1917.  They were in the LANGEMARCK area of The Salient in Oct 1917 and then moved down to MONCHY.

 

As regards Lichfield Barracks, I agree this may be a red herring as it may have been his demob posting.  1/KRRC were however in camp in 1919 on Cannock Chase, which is not that far away.  1/RB went to Aldershot when they returned from France/Belgium in Spring 1919, but I have no further info on their movements thereafter.

 

Final point: while presence of blackened buttons generally confirms a rifle regiment, absence of same does not necessarily prove the wearer was not in a rifle regiment.  This may be pertinent to the photo of Ash as a seated Corporal with GS buttons.  Interesting he has no wound stripes up in that photo.  Perhaps he had just received this SD jacket and not fully converted it in the rifles tradition.

 

 

If you give us some more family history data, I may be able to identify the other rifleman, who is *possibly* his son - i.e. William's date and place of birth, names of father, mother, brothers, wife and any children.  I attempted this, but it just got too difficult with so little to go on- there are eleven KRRC riflemen with surname Ash!

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Brilliant stuff Mark, good to see you posting here again and thank you for taking the time to consider this conundrum.  You make an excellent point about his brief connection with the South Stafford’s and, on the surface of things, it does seem entirely possible that he only completed Militia basic training with that regiment and then transferred for regular service with KRRC circa 1903 for his initial engagement.

Edited 20 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Alexwfc99]

On 20/04/2021 at 05:51, MBrockway said:

 

 

Apologies - I'm not on the GWF as much these days and didn't know about this topic till Andy tipped me off.

 

 

 

What's your evidence for William ASH joining the 3rd Bn South Staffs (Militia) in 1902 and what's your source for the associated number 6912 you mention?

 

I ask this because Ash's KRRC Service Number of 4743 would typically point to a KRRC Regular enlisting in Spring/Summer 1902.  In 1902 all four KRRC Regular battalions were overseas.

 

It's possible he joined the Militia to see how he liked the military life and having taken to it, decided to resign from the militia and join as a Regular - I certainly have some examples of this in other KRRC ORs.

 

Terms were usually 5 years with the Colours and 7 years on the Reserve meaning he would have returned to civvy street as a Reservist in approx 1907-8 for the remaining 7 years of his twelve.  Thus he would have been recalled from the Reserve at the start of the War in Aug 1914.  It is also possible he opted to stay in the KRRC when his Colour Service expired, rather than going into Reserve.  It was not unusual for riflemen to extend their service like this.  However I can find him in neither 1/KRRC nor 2/KRRC in the UK in 1911.  I haven't looked for him with 3/ and 4/KRRC out in India in 1911.

 

He went out to France & Flanders on 13 Aug 1914 with rank Rifleman in 1/KRRC.  That's the date the battalion as a whole embarked, so he went out with the battalion rather than joined them in the Field.

At some point Ash was posted to 11/KRRC - one of the K2 battalions.  Since he had gone out as an Old Contemptible, this posting is most likely to have been following a spell in Blighty, wounded, or sick.

 

He is then transferred to the 1st Bn., The Rifle Brigade with a new Service Number of 6450 and ends the war as a Sergeant.

 

As you posted higher up, he appears as Wounded in Casualty List #5411 reported on 08 Nov 1917.  Since he's reported with SN of 6450 I assumed he was already with 1/RB by this time.  This is confirmed by the actual List:

 

 

At this stage he has made Corporal.

 

As before, his move to the RB is likely to have been on his return to duties after a spell back in Blighty due to a wounding or to sickness.

 

Andy may be able to add something about the circumstances of Ash's wounding with 1/RB in November 1917.  They were in the LANGEMARCK area of The Salient in Oct 1917 and then moved down to MONCHY.

 

As regards Lichfield Barracks, I agree this may be a red herring as it may have been his demob posting.  1/KRRC were however in camp in 1919 on Cannock Chase, which is not that far away.  1/RB went to Aldershot when they returned from France/Belgium in Spring 1919, but I have no further info on their movements thereafter.

 

Final point: while presence of blackened buttons generally confirms a rifle regiment, absence of same does not necessarily prove the wearer was not in a rifle regiment.  This may be pertinent to the photo of Ash as a seated Corporal with GS buttons.  Interesting he has no wound stripes up in that photo.  Perhaps he had just received this SD jacket and not fully converted it in the rifles tradition.

 

 

If you give us some more family history data, I may be able to identify the other rifleman, who is *possibly* his son - i.e. William's date and place of birth, names of father, mother, brothers, wife and any children.  I attempted this, but it just got too difficult with so little to go on- there are eleven KRRC riflemen with surname Ash!

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

 

 

 

Hi mate thanks for this, the picture below is the evidence , and as for other family members he had no brothers, so for the other rifle guy I’m not sure, also if you don’t mind I know he was taken pow on 28th March 1918, do you have any idea where 1 rif brig were at that time? thanks alot