Assistance Required, Ernest Richards, Yorkshire and Dorset Regiments

[RaySearching]

Medal Roll shows  discharged from duty 25/9/19 (class Z reserves 

He has a WFA pension card  which indicates that he received a pension till 1931

so no post war service

 

Its looking highly unlikely that the soldier in the photo is Ernest

 

 

Ray

 

[ss002d6252]

8 minutes ago, GoldenMan said:

I am starting to think that the four medals my relative has could well be the key. I have seen the medal card that shows two medals being awarded. 

 

Thank you all.

Well, so far, Ernest has entitlement only to 2 medals so we'd need details of the other medals.

Craig

[PRC]

8 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

 

1939 register confirms the date of birth as  1st May 1897

 

Not strictly true that it is confirmed - dates of birth on the 1939 Register were not verified, so it's appearance on the Register simply tells us that was the information given. Of course the Register went on to be used during the war for the issue of ID cards and rations books, then post 1948 by the NHS as their central registry, so if someone chose to give a false date of birth later on down the line it could cause issues, leading to the register being corrected. But that is of course if it is picked up on - the shorter the period of time the person lived post September 1939, the less likely it would come to light.

 

So d.o.b on the 1939 Register is a good source, because there is a self-correcting mechanism of sorts, but it's not perfect.

 

Same with death certificates. If the informant can't supply documentary evidence as to date of birth then they sign a declaration that the information supplied is correct to the best of their knowledge.

 

So usual rule - primary sources are good , but you just need to be aware of the potential flaws

(And apologies if I've misinterpreted what you have written).

 

Cheers,

Perer

[RaySearching]

Ernest has service papers on Ancestry (LINK)  should also be available on Find My Past

 

Should be interesting reading for the O.P 

deserted at one point and returned to service

 

 

Ray

 

 

 

[RaySearching]

As Peter has pointed out 

The date of birth 1st May 1896 maybe the date of birth that he believed was the date that he was born

He may or may not, have known, precisely when he was born,  

times were hard at the turn of the century more important things to worry about like earning enough money to survive

than the exact date that you were born

 

    

 

He is shown on the 1901 census with his parents Ernest and Julia aged 5

on the 1911 census with his parents aged 15

so born 1896 or thereabouts

 

Which leaves the question who is the officer cadet in the photo ? which you believed to be your grandfather

 

 

Ray

 

[charlie962]

18 hours ago, RaySearching said:

Ernest has service papers on Ancestry (LINK)  should also be available on Find My Past

see prev posts on first page !

[RaySearching]

5 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

see prev posts on first page !

 

I think I must have been exposed to the Nile Virus

 

Regards Ray

[FROGSMILE]

I agree that it does seem extremely unlikely that a private soldier in the infantry would begin training to be an officer in a branch of the Royal Artillery, unless perhaps he had passed some kind of aptitude test that made him suitable, and one would wonder why a man ostensibly with 3-years of overseas service would not be an NCO if considered potential officer material.  The only thing that did bear consideration was that there must have been officer cadets still undergoing instruction and not yet commissioned at the time of the Armistice.  I don’t know what the policy might have been, but imagine that school commandants would have sought guidance from the war office.  Perhaps they were offered immediate discharge at their substantive rank, although considering the uncertainty regarding the deliberations at Versailles, and the men being discharged to the Z Reserve, that seems less likely.  All-in-all I concur with everyone else that the officer cadet seems unlikely to be the same man as the inquirer thinks.

Edited 28 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The only thing that did bear consideration was that there must have been officer cadets still undergoing instruction and not yet commissioned at the time of the Armistice.

I'd thought about that but when I saw his record in 1918 there was no time out of detention to fit in even a quick officer's course.

 

charlie

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I'd thought about that but when I saw his record in 1918 there was no time out of detention to fit in even a quick officer's course.

 

charlie

Yes that makes sense Charlie, I missed the bit about detention.

[PRC]

All,

 

The more I look at it, the more convinced I an that there are two different individuals,  both probably called Ernest Richards.

 

The first is an officer cadet in a branch of the Royal Artillery. The provenance of this is a photograph, having been passed down from mother to son, and the individual concerned being at least verbally identified as her father – the posters maternal grandfather. He is believed to have been gassed at some point. He is believed to have received 4 medals.

 

The photograph of him as an officer cadet shows him with three overseas chevrons, so at least 2 years overseas. There are no photograpker details, etc, on the back of the photograph.

 

No officer record or London Gazette entry for commissioning found so far – but full birth name still to be confirmed.

 

He died when OPs’ mother was 11 years old.

 

He has been identified as born 1st May 1897 at Middlesbrough, but the OP hasn’t confirmed where that information has come from and looking increasingly like it relates to the second individual.

 

                        ~~~~~~~~~@~~~~~~~~~

 

The second man served in the ranks as Yorkshire Regiment 27988 then Dorsetshire Regiment 46746. Some of his service records have survived and indicate a poor disciplinary history, including desertion, with parts(?) of 1918 served in detention. (Ancestry have them split under 27988 for enlistment and 46745 for discharge).

 

He qualified for the British War Medal and the Victory Medal, having landed overseas in a theatre of war on the 13th October 1916. OP has the medals and these show “Private E Richards 27988 York R”. He was discharged to Class “Z” Reserve on the 25th September 1919 still in the ranks.

 

Address on discharge was 28 Calthorpe Street, Middlesbrough. He married a Catherine McCabe in 1920. (Civil marriage records shows this Ernest with no middle names). 1939 register shows him residing at 13 Essex Street, Middlesbrough and he was incapacitated. It is his date of birth that is shown as 1st May 1897. Is there anything on the surviving records to indicate where he was born and who his next of kin where?

 

There is no provenance so far as to how those medals came into the OP’s possession.

 

Thank you to @Michelle Young , @ss002d6252 , @Polar Bear , @charlie962 , and @RaySearching for the information included above – any errors and miscomprehension are likely to be mine.

 

One thing we have from the OP is that his maternal grandfather died when his mother was 11, and we know from the 1939 Register that the man believe to be the other ranks Ernest Richards was still alive when it was taken on the 29th September 1939.

 

Likely births registered in the Middlesbrough District with the surname Richards, mothers’ maiden name McCabe.

Q1 1921 Winifred Richards

Q4 1923 Eileen M. Richards

Q1 1928 Eileen P Richards

Q3 1930 Mona C Richards

Q3 1934 Gerard Richards

Q4 1936 Elizabeth A Richards

Q4 1939 Marie J Richards

Of course additional children may have been born elsewhere, this may be the children of two or more unions of a Mr Richards to a Miss McCabe, errors happen in the civil records, etc, etc.

 

However likely deaths of an Ernest Richards, (no middle names), in England & Wales includes a 44 year old Ernest in the Middlesbrough District in Q2 1942, (no obvious civil probate). If that is the right individual, and assuming the above are his children, then looks like he only becomes a serious candidate if the OP’s mother was Mona.

 

So at this point I think only the Artillery Officer cadet is a serious candidate for consideration. How the other mans’ medals came into the family possession we shall probably never know – extended family, bought on a whim because of similar name, etc, etc.

 

As we now have very little to go on who the Artillery Officer cadet is, for me the next step has to be with the OP, who quite rightly might not wish to post family information in a public forum.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited 28 February , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[RaySearching]

Peter 

 

As can be seen on Ernest's attestation doc

He gave his age as 20 and 7 months old on the 11th Dec 1915  (attestation Dec 1915 -called up 17/5/1916

 

 

 

 

 

Note he apparently could not write as he has put a cross as (the mark of Ernest Richards) as his signature

 

 

corresponding 1911 census return for 88 Duncombe Street Middlesbrough

 

hope this assists

 

Ray

[PRC]

Thanks Ray,

 

8 hours ago, RaySearching said:

Note he apparently could not write as he has put a cross as (the mark of Ernest Richards) as his signature

 

If proof was needed that we are looking at two different men surely that has to be it.  The Army would be unlikely to consider him officer material for any unit, let alone one as technically complex as the artillery.

 

So if he was 20 years and 7 months when he enlisted on the 11th December 1915, (and assuming that information can be taken at face value), then looking at a birth April/May 1895.

 

The address on the enlistment, as you point out, is identical to the one on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, where there is a 15 year old Ernest in the household, born Grangetown, Yorkshire. As the census was taken on the 2nd April 1911, and again, assuming the information is correct, that gives you a birth between the 3rd April 1895 and the 2nd April 1896.

 

Which in turn leads us back to the Ernest John Richards, (co-incidentally or not, the name of the father on the 1911 Census), whose birth was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Middlesbrough District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1895. Mothers’ maiden name was Gauntlett.

 

The UK BMD site doesn’t list a Civil Parish of Grangetown as being part of the area covered by the Middlesbrough Civil Registration District:

https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/middlesbrough.html

However a check of the 1901 Census of England & Wales for households in Grangetown, Yorkshire, brought up quite a number, but a random check of 20 households shows they addresses were given as Grangetown, Eston – and the Civil Parish of Eston is definitely in the right Civil Registration District.

 

Ernest is also shown as born Grangetown on the 1901 Census of England & Wales.

 

The 1911 Census information tells us parents Ernest John and Julia have been married 20 years, and their oldest child living with them, Mary Ann, (18), was born Middlesbrough.

 

The marriage of an Ernest John Richards to a Julia Gauntlett was recorded in the Middlesbrough District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1891.

 

Conclusions:

1)     The civil records antecedents for the other ranks man is now known – birth, 1901 & 1911 Census entries are consistant and tie in with enlistment.

2)     We therefore know nothing about the officer cadet, unless it is his marriage and 1939 Register entry, and therefore potentially that is the point the two sets of records become mixed up on the genealogy side.

 

If the 1st May 1897 birthdate is in fact correct for the Artillery Officer, and he was born in England & Wales, (two big assumptions) and given that you had 42 days after the event to register the birth, then you should be looking at a birth registered in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1897.

 

Candidates are:-

 

Ernest Richards…………….Birkenhead District

Ernest Richards…………….Nuneaton District (likely death Q3 1897)

Ernest George Richards……Cardiff District (likely death Q4 1897)

Ernest Victor Richards…….Pancras District

Ernest William Richards…..Bridgwater District

Ernest William Richards…..Bedminster District (likely death Q3 1897)

 

Going through those who made adulthood, there is a 1946 London Gazette entry for a Captain (Quartermaster) Ernest Victor Richards, (241182), The South Wales Borderers, who was associated with Chorley.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/37442/supplement/624/data.pdf

 

Hopefully @GoldenMan will come back and provide some more information so we can assist him further.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Michelle Young]

@GoldenManCould the photo be of one of your mothers uncles, a brother in law, or did your grandmother remarry?