A Highland Light Infantry soldier?

[PPCLI]

Hello,

I am posting a photo of a soldier who I believe was in the same battalion of the Highland Light Infantry as my grandfather. Problem is I don't know which battalion my grandfather was in (or his regimental number). All that I know is that he was 18 in March 1918 and left the village on his birthday and went for basic training to Dreghorn (nr. Edinburgh), served with the HLI and ended up near Dusseldorf (I take it as part of the Army of Occupation, but I can't find any HLI Bttn. that was in Germany!).

The photo below was in a group of about ten. I have already posted a photo of my grandfather in the "Other" section, under the thread "'Unofficial' regimental verses", however, the photo below has more uniform detail (I suppose you wouldn't get dressed up in your best kit to work with the horses , see other thread).

Is it possible for members to confirm that this indeed is an HLI uniform and whether it is possible to narrow down possible battalions?

Here's hoping,

Stuart

[James Brown]

Stuart

It looks to me as if it is definately HLI Collar badges, and on the shoulder title after I blew it up, sure its HLI Shoulder Title.

The bandolier and lanyard would signify mounted. But I'm no expert on the uniforms.

Cheers

[PPCLI]

Thanks James,

So far, so good. I was almost positive myself, but I'm a bit of a novice at this game so wanted some comfirmation. Now I need to see if someone can narrow down the possible battalions.

Also, did all infantry battalions have mounted soldiers? My grandfather always told my dad that even though he was from S.W. Scotland (nr. Kirkcudbright and usually KOSB territory) that he was put into the HLI because they needed men who could work with their horses (he was a ploughmen at home).

How is sunny Ayrshire? Spent a lot of summer holidays near Maybole in the 70s

Thanks again,

Stuart

[James Brown]

Stuart

The Highland Light Infantry were as such, an Infantry Regiment. They did not have horses. That is why I said I was'nt sure. That late in the war, and especially the occupation, he could have been sent to another Regt. The bandolier round the chest, and the lanyard would to me signify Mounted. I don't want to mislead you here, as i'm not so sure. Maybe someone else will have the right explanation. He is still wearing the collar badges of the HLI and the Shoulder title is HLI.

Good photograph though.

Not so sunny down here these days, it snowed today and it was bitterly cold.

Best of luck

[Joe Sweeney]

Stuart,

Every Infantry unit had horses. The 1918 War Establishment for an Infantry Battalion had 55 horses. 11 for riding the rest draught or pack.

The soldiers assigned to mounted duty, as drivers etc were sometimes issued pattern 03 type equipment (i.e. bandoleer) althought this is by no means 100%. In 1914 mounted men of the Infantry were supposed to be issued as all other Infantry minus a few itemns such as entrenching tools but 1903 bandoleer equipment was also very common.

Joe Sweeney

[Malcolm]

It is possible that he was like my Great Uncle who was in 2nd Lothian and Borders Horse and ended up in the 17th Royal Scots when L&B were absorbed.

18th (service) Battalion HLI absorbed the Glasgow Yeomanry RHQ A & B Squadrons ( 4 Officers and 146 men) in September 1917 . It became 18th ( Glasgow Yeomanry) Battalion HLI in 35th Division.

I have a similar photo of my G Uncle with bandolier etc.

Aye

Malcolm

[Auimfo]

The collar insignia look similar to the Kings Shropshire Light Infantry.

[Raster Scanning]

I think the biggest clue to him being a mounted soldier is the fact he is wearing spurs

Cheers.

John.

[Chris_Baker]

I do not believe any Bns of HLI went into Germany.

One came close: ther 14th (Service) Bn, with 66th Division, was ordered to move towards Germany with the army of occupation, but although it advanced across Belgium did not actually go across the border.

As for "infantry had no horses", etc: do check the extensive description of a Battalion that you can find on The Long, Long Trail.

[AndrewThornton]

I do not believe any Bns of HLI went into Germany.

The 2nd Battalion of the Highland Light Infanty entered Germany on 9th December 1918 with pipers playing and the Colours - including the Assaye Colour - uncased. The battalion stayed in Cologne until April 1919, when they returned to Aldershot before being sent to Archangel to serve with the North Russia Force.

[PPCLI]

Thanks to everyone who has taken time to reply to my query.

The "What was a Battalion?" section, that I somehow seemed to have missed, has certainly cleared up a few points for me.

As for "infantry had no horses", I had previously written to the people who run the The Royal Highland Fusiliers Museum in Glasgow and part of their (not very helpful reply) was that "I see that you mention he looked after horses....., the HLI were an Infantry Battalion".

Thanks to Andrew for the 2nd Bttn info. This helps in a big way because, apart from knowing my grandfather's regiment, the only other concrete fact we know of is that he ended up near Düsseldorf, which isn't that far away from Cologne. Is it possible to find more detailed information on the whereabouts of the 2nd Bn. HLI in Germany? Does anyone have that information to hand? Would I need to get hold of their war diary or would I have to track down a copy of "The occupation of the Rhineland 1918-1929 / by Brig-Gen. Sir James Edmonds" - does it go into that detail? Again, I did enquire to the Museum about the HLI in Germany, but was given the reply "I have no information on any troops of the HLI being in Düsseldorf at the end of the 1st WW".

Thanks again,

Stuart

[Auimfo]

Luckily for you Stuart, I'm just your man. My G-Grandfather also served in the 2nd HLI and I was fortunate enough to find a copy of the very hard to get WW1 battalion history written by Telfer-Smollett.

In brief, The last town in Belgium the 2nd HLI passed through on their way to the frontier was Staveley. They then crossed into Germany on December 9th and entered the town of Malmedy, marching through the town square with bayonets fixed and Colours unfurled. The march continued and on 17th December they passed through Duren. Christmas Day was spent in Nettesheim and on the 27th they marched to their final winter quarters of Worringen am Rhein. Here they remained until April 1919. During the course of April, the battalion was reduced to a cadre of 6 officers and 48 other ranks who returned to Aldershot from Worringen. The remainder were either demobilized or posted to the Army of the Rhine.

I hope this gives you a little more detail and helps your enquiries. The book does not included a nominal roll but does list all those who died during the war and a list of all men who received Honours and Awards. If you tell me your Grandfather's name, perhaps (with a little luck) I might be able to find some reference to him.

Tim L.

[Auimfo]

GOOD GOD STUART!!!!

Just found your other post about your Grandfather Pte George Wilson and then went and had a look in the book. Of course he wasn't listed under those who died(but there were four other Wilson's) Then I went to honours and awards and almost missed it. There at the top of the page it lists:

9553 Private George Wilson - Victoria Cross!!!!!

A little more hunting on the net and I found the following:

He was 28 years old, and a Private in the 2nd Bn., The Highland Light Infantry, British Army during the First World War when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the VC.

On 14 September 1914 near Verneuill, France, Private Wilson went with a rifleman to try to locate a machine-gun which was holding up the advance of the 2nd Battalion, Highland Light Infantry. When the rifleman was killed, Private Wilson went on alone and, when he reached his target shot six of the enemy, bayoneted the officer and then captured the gun.

I further found that 9553 Pte George Wilson was born 29/04/1886 (Edinburgh) and died 22/4/1926 (Edinburgh). Is this the same as your Grandfather?

If it is him then he was one of only two 2nd HLI to be awarded the VC in WW1 and his VC is displayed in the Royal Highland Fusilier Museum.

Please tell me I've got the right man - how sensational would that be!!

Tim L.

[Auimfo]

A little more detail about the VC -

At Verneuill the 2nd HLI came into action for the first time since Mons, and had been involved for only an hour when Private George Wilson spied a couple of Germans and informed his officer. The officer was incredulous and took up his glasses to take a closer look but he was immediately shot dead. Wilson quickly avenged his killing by taking aim and shooting the two Germans. He then advanced about a hundred yards and saw eight more Germans. He charged them at once making noises as though he was accompanied by a strong group. The Germans immediately surrendered and in doing so gave up two prisoners from the Middlesex Regiment. It was then when he was going forward that he came across the scores of wounded and dead who had previously been part of the attacking force who had been caught by German machine-gun fire.

George Wilson was so incensed by the terrible massacre that he virtually went berserk and together with a volunteer from the KRRC set out to destroy the German machine-gun position. After only a hundred yards Wilson's colleague was shot dead by the machine-gun. Wilson took steady aim and killed the machine gunner, and then wiped out the whole of the enemy position, eventually getting to within ten yards of the gun. At this point the German officer in charge of the Maxim emptied his revolver in the direction of Wilson, but missed and Wilson immediately bayoneted him. But even then Wilson was not satisfied, turning the machine-gun round he fired 750 rounds at the enemy. Throughout this time was a victim of heavy shellfire which eventually forced him back to his own lines where he promptly fainted.

When he came round he discovered that no one had thought of retrieving the Maxim so he set off again to bring back the gun. It took two more trips to carry back the remaining two and a half cases of ammunition as well. He still had one more task to carry out and this was to fetch the body of his colleague from the KRRC who had been shot seventeen times.

[Muerrisch]

Stuart

The Highland Light Infantry were as such, an Infantry Regiment. They did not have horses.

Not many, they didn't! About 50 at my count.

Soldiers of the Transport section of every battalion often were dressed for mounted duty: even carthorses need exercising, often as led horses.

[PPCLI]

Sorry Tim, 9553 Pte George Wilson was definitely not my grandfather. He was one of the easier 31 possible Pte George Wilsons in the HLI to rule out of my search! (My grandfather wasn't born till March 1918). George Wilson V.C. was some man though, wasn't he? It doesn't matter how many of these exploits I read I still cannot even remotely imagine what it must of been like to be in those dreadful situations. I suppose being in the 2nd Bn. he was a regular, I don't know if that made things 'easier' - more training, being drilled year after year to just do it without thinking about it as much?!

Re the battalion history by Telfer-Smollett, from a quick Web search, Worringen seems to be almost part of Düsseldorf so that fits in with my grandfather's story (but doesn't say much for the info I got from the Museum).

Also, do you have any information on the allocation of regimental numbers to the different HLI battalions? I have been told that there is a file at the Museum in Glasgow that logs, with dates, batches of numbers allocated to the different battalions.

langleybaston1418 - yes, you're quite right about the horses (as I'm sure you know!). I have a few other photos, all with horses in, some cavalry type, some Shire types.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Auimfo]

Stuart,

B*gger.

Thought I was onto something there but should have guessed you'd already gone down that path.

Unfortunately I've got nothing regarding the allocation of regimental numbers to the battalions. I too have contacted the Museum and it appears you got more of a response than I did - which is to say you got very little help and I got none at all! I had a friend who visited the Museum and he said the curator was very helpful when he 'went there in person'.

I see what you mean by the number of George Wilson's in the HLI. I did a quick check via the MIC online and there are quite a few. I suppose it's going to mean a trip by yourself or someone to the Archives and a check on each one's MIC's or service records (if they exist) to narrow it down by process of elimination.

Good Luck with the search, if there's anything I can do let me know.

Tim L.

[James Brown]

Apologies Stuart, I knew the Pals would come in to correct.

[James Brown]

As a footnote-

AO 83 1910.

Regimental Transport and Soldiers training as Mounted Infantry.

soldiers under training or employed as drivers of regimental transport, non commissioned officers in charge of the transport, soldiers under training for mounted infantry or mounted duties etc will require these items.

Mounted Infantry, Regimental Transport drivers, Camel Corps School, and other Dismounted soldiers, engaged on or under training for, Mounted duties

All Stations

Drawers Cotton 2 pair

Pantaloons Cord 1 pair

Puttees 1 pair

Bag, Stable 1

Knife clasp, with marlin-spike, tin opener and LANYARD 1

SPURS, JACK 1 pair every 5 years

Strap, chin (Scottish regiments only) 1

Cheers Stuart

Good luck

[PPCLI]

Apologies Stuart, I knew the Pals would come in to correct

James, no apology required. That's what I might of thought myself if I didn't have the photos to disprove it. You spurred (pun intended) all the Pals on to put us on the right track. In fact, I was pleased to get a reply; the only other topic I started ("Other" section - 'Unofficial regimental verses') hasn't had one comment passed on it (although if people don't know of other little verses then I'm not sure what I expected them to say!). Thank you for the info on 'Regimental Transport and Soldiers training as Mounted Infantry'. If I'm not going to be able to pin down my granfather's full service record then this kind of detail is what I'll need to add some meat to the bones.

Tim L. - I have been for one trip to the NA and have so far, out of 31 HLI Pte. George Wilsons, conclusively eliminated 19 of them, with another 5 being extremely unlikely, then I ran out of time. However, if the evidence of him being near Düsseldorf at the end of the war means that he was with the 2nd Bttn. then I am not sure if any of the remaining men fit either!

To anyone who may have photo-editing software to hand: With respect to the photo I attached at the start of this thread, could someone please see if they can make out the initials of this unidentified soldier (in his left ankle); I take it that he was a good pal of my grandfather's. I'm sure his surname is Campbell and from the basic software I have I think I have made a guess at what his initials are (certainly the 2nd initial). If I'm correct and others confirm this I think the initials fit only one man in the HLI, who also happens to be in the 2nd Bttn!

Here's hoping, Stuart.

[StAubyns]

Stuart this should really be regarded as a guess but i'll stick my neck out and say

L G Campbell

I'm only a begginer with this software but find attached my attempt

regards Geoff

[PPCLI]

Hi Geoff,

Thanks for your quick reply. Needless to say your guess is different to mine. I'm beginning to think that I've confused some of his footwear detail (spurs etc) for initials. I had let myself imagine a possible J.R. - I now think probably not.

My problem is that I have so little information to work with that I tend to try and squeeze out more than is practically feasible.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Guest scotlad]

Stuart.

Just a couple of words to where they were stationed.

If the HLI was in Cologne after the war then Worringen fits very well into their district as it is now a part of the greater Cologne area (Köln-Worringen).

Düsseldorf is not far away so it could also be used as a general sense of direction.

Have fun

Mike

[Adam Harland]

Stuart,

There were a number of HLI battalions that served in Germany, including the 2nd ( or the 74th as Col Oatts will have it in his history of the HLI. There were also the 15th and 16th, which left the 32nd Div, and were transfered to 9th (Scottish), as part of the army in Germany. The 16th entrained for the UK on 25/9/1919 and disbanded in 1920.

There was also the 51st HLI ' which was part of a force of young men held in reserve in the United Kingdom, and now sent forward to the Rhine@ ( Proud Heritage, The Story of the HLI). Given the age of your granfather at the time, this may well have been his unit.

There are some series of HLI numbers that are easy to place in abattalion, but these are usually those allotted at the time of the raising of the 'service ' battalions, 10-12, 14-18.

I dont suppose that has helped narrow your search at all

Regards

Adam

[PPCLI]

Hello Adam,

Thanks very much for getting in touch with information on other HLI battalions that entered Germany. I'd be very interested if you could provide me with more details of their movements (if you have the information to hand).

I have searched for info on the 15th and 16th Bns. after leaving the 32nd Division, but can't find anything online about them. All I know is from the Long, Long Trail Divisional histories:

For 16th (Service) Bn (2nd Glasgow), the Highland Light Infantry:

32nd Division

97th Brigade: joined May 1915, left February 1918

Divisional Troops: joined as Pioneer Bn February 1918

For 15th (Service) Bn (2nd Glasgow), the Highland Light Infantry:

32nd Division

97th Brigade: joined May 1915, left January 1916

14the Brigade: joined January 1916

Do you (or anyone else) know when these two battalions left the 32nd Division and joined the 9th (Scottish) Division? Also, do you have any details of their locations in Germany; I am trying to pin an HLI battalion to being nearer to Düsseldorf than Cologne, Scotlad (thanks) confirms that the 2nd Bn. were closer to Cologne (my grandfather never mentioned Cologne). The Long, Long Trail timeline states that the Division ceased to exist on 16 March 1919, while the 16th didn't entrain for the UK until 25 Sep 1919 - who did it end up with?

As for the 51st, that's a new one to me completely! You haven't narrowed down my search, but you have increased my chances of finding a time/place that may fit in with the scant information that I have to go on. Thank you.

Hope to hear more soon,

Stuart