Thomas Jones Posted 18 February , 2021 Share Posted 18 February , 2021 (edited) Hi, hope everyone is well at this time. I have just discovered I am related to Lance Bombardier William Jones Williams of 45 Dean Street, Bangor and have found lots of information about him and his service. Unfortunately William died of his wounds 27th April 2018 leaving his wife and his baby son. My great great Grandmother Cicely Maggie Jones was a witness for their wedding day. I have Williams photograph which is a great find for me, but it's also very sad. I got the photo from the Bangor Civic Society website which has all the photos of the Bangor men who lost their lives in the war. I'll post the link here. I have a few questions if anyone can help me answer? I am in need of a little bit of deciphering off his medal card. He has the B and V medals and I wondered if it mentions his Death Plaque on the card? It is stamped 'T.P.WAR.RGA.T.F.TFWM4 144'. Is this Death Plaque? Does his service record exist or do you think it's been destroyed? There are so many William Joneses and it is not coming up in Ancestry with any of his information. Why didn't William qualify for the Star medal? I have found the location of his war grave in Belgium too which is great to help keep his memory alive now. Any other information at all would really appreciated. Very best Regards, Thomas K Jones (Tom) Added the marriage certificate of Arthur Owen Jones 20697 and Cicely Maggie Roberts. Cicely Maggie returned the favour to witness their wedding. Arthur was away in the War with the 14th Battalion. 'Evan Thomas Williams' was Williams elder brother. He was also a soldier 3625 in the RWF, Special Reserve in 1906 if correct. Then appointed Lance Corporal 3608 1907 Termination of his engagement October 1912. Joined Royal Engineers for WW1 Service Record: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1219/images/31240_209092-00844?pId=1400252 Edited 24 February , 2021 by Thomas Jones Added the marriage certificate of Arthur Owen Jones 20697 and Cicely Maggie Roberts and info about Evan Thomas Williams, 45 Dean Street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner 87 Posted 18 February , 2021 Share Posted 18 February , 2021 (edited) Hello Thomas, I would suggest the T.F.War.RGA.T.F.T.FWM4 is reference to the Territorial Force War Medal. Edited 18 February , 2021 by Gunner 87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jones Posted 18 February , 2021 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2021 Ah! right okay thank you. I know the medal you mean. My great Taid, Arthur Pengwyn Jones got one of these in WW2 with the 69th Medium RA for double service during wartime if I'm right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jones Posted 18 February , 2021 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2021 Thank you very much for deciphering that bit of information Gunner 87. I have now found the record of the medal!! Cheers, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner 87 Posted 18 February , 2021 Share Posted 18 February , 2021 (edited) Thomas, please excuse my ignorance but does the document in Welsh say he recruited on 4th August or in 1916? Edited 18 February , 2021 by Gunner 87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jones Posted 18 February , 2021 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2021 No problem... He was called up 4th August 1914 and reached France 1st March 1916. It also says he was involved in several battles and did his part bravely, but in an attack on April 25th, he was severely wounded and died 2 days later on the 27th. It says he was buried in Haringha, Poperinghe, France aged 24. The War Grave records I have found says he was buried Haringhe (Bandaghem) Military Cemetery, Belgium. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jones Posted 18 February , 2021 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2021 The link to the 6 online pages of Bangor, Gwynedd men lost in WW1 is below. Hardback Book scanned Cofeb y Dewrion (Bangor) Hero's Memorial 1914-1918 (Parch/Rev. W.J Owen) INDEX PAGE: Cofeb y Dewrion (bangorcivicsociety.org.uk) Let me know if you need any translations Best, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 18 February , 2021 Share Posted 18 February , 2021 Hi Tom, And the book also says he belonged to the Territorial Army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner 87 Posted 18 February , 2021 Share Posted 18 February , 2021 3 minutes ago, Thomas Jones said: No problem... He was called up 4th August 1914 and reached France 1st March 1916. It also says he was involved in several battles and did his part bravely, but in an attack on April 25th, he was severely wounded and died 2 days later on the 27th. It says he was buried in Haringha, Poperinghe, France aged 24. The War Grave records I have found says he was buried Haringhe (Bandaghem) Military Cemetery, Belgium. Tom This is the link to the War Diary for the 1/1 Welsh Heavy Battery. Some diaries are very detailed and record actions and casualty numbers. It probably won't mention William by name but you might it may give an idea as to when Williams was killed. It's available on a free download at the moment once you register with the NA. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/7074ca60af65483dbcc7c762c35fca45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jones Posted 18 February , 2021 Author Share Posted 18 February , 2021 Thanks for that Gunner 87. 67 pages! I'll leave that for tomorrow 👍 Thanks Dai, yes seen it now that it mentions the Territorial Army. I think I'll put up a full translation soon so people can read the poem at the bottom of his obituary. I am rusty though living in Knutsford 😊 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner 87 Posted 18 February , 2021 Share Posted 18 February , 2021 Regarding the 1914 or 1914- 1915 Star, although William mobilised on the 4th August 1914 he did not qualify for either as he didn't serve in a theatre of war until 1st March 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 18 February , 2021 Share Posted 18 February , 2021 His effects record indicates he actually died at 36 Casualty Clearing Station Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jones Posted 19 February , 2021 Author Share Posted 19 February , 2021 Thanks Gunner87 and Mark1959 for the info. Is there somewhere I can view the 36 Casualty clearing station, Best, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 19 February , 2021 Share Posted 19 February , 2021 Tom Forum pal TEW has carried out a fair bit of research into 36 Casualty Clearing Station TEW's Thread on the Great War Forum re 36 CCS although having had a quick loo,k William Williams is not mentioned by name on the thread Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jones Posted 20 February , 2021 Author Share Posted 20 February , 2021 Many thanks for the link, i'll have look through now, Tom J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 20 February , 2021 Share Posted 20 February , 2021 I note the thread has a trench map ref for 36 CCS. Will see if I can find the modern day location tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 21 February , 2021 Share Posted 21 February , 2021 (edited) I noted that the War Diary shown apparently ends on 31 January 1918 according to the catalogue, so it would have no details about what the unit was up to later that year. Is there another WO95 number covering the 1/1 Welsh HB RGA's service during 1918-19? Did it change from being under 2nd Army to some other formation then? I think that the battery was engaged in the battle of the Lys during April 1918. The Imperial War Museum have a typescript history of the unit (?under the Library rather than the archives) and also (Archives) a copy of a personal account by an RFC/RAF wireless operator attached to it during 1917-18. I knew one member of the battery in my youth, he was the porter on the entrance desk at the University Library (the other porter was an RAF WW1 veteran). Clive Edited 22 February , 2021 by clive_hughes Error correction (twice!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 22 February , 2021 Share Posted 22 February , 2021 Hi Tom, Images sourced from The National Archives The war diaries covering his overseas service are available as free downloads from the National Archives - see here, and here. On 18/02/2021 at 22:31, Thomas Jones said: He was called up 4th August 1914 The qualification criteria for the TFWM can be seen here. Given those, I suspect that William was a pre-war Territorial, who left Southampton with his unit on 2nd March 1916, and arrived at Le Havre the following day. I think that the date of 4th August 1914 isn't the date that he was 'called up'/enlisted, rather it was the date that war was declared, and when TF units/men became 'embodied'. Looking at surviving papers for a few near-ish number 1/1 men: 332 Loynes (renumbered to 310075 in 1917) - attested 3.7.1912 393 Evans (renumbered to 310117 in 1917) - attested 17.6.1913 412 Jones (renumbered to 310131 in 1917) - attested 23.2.1914 433 Owen (renumbered to 310150 in 1917) - attested 20.3.1914 On 18/02/2021 at 21:50, Thomas Jones said: I have found the location of his war grave in Belgium too If you would like a digital image of it, it looks like British War Graves (link) would be able to send you one, free of charge. William left what was accepted as being his will - £1.50 from here. It would come as a pdf file as a low resolution B&W scan of the original, and may only consist of a very few words. I don't know what the delay in receiving it at the moment is. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jones Posted 22 February , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2021 Thanks Clive and Chris, I really appreciate you putting together this information and the links. I've sent off for the will to add to his record. Estimated delivery is 24th so pretty quick considering. Also requested the photo of his final resting place. Will post when received. A real picture is developing of him thanks to everyone's great input. Means a lot. The surviving papers for a few near-ish number 1/1 men is interesting information: 332 Loynes (renumbered to 310075 in 1917) - attested 3.7.1912 etc... William was 326 renumbered to 310070 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Lys_(1918) "The Battle of the Lys, also known as the Fourth Battle of Ypres, was fought from 7 to 29 April 1918 and was part of the German Spring Offensive in Flanders" William was injured on the 25th and died from his wounds on the 27th. Think this could be Williams final battle. Looking through the diaries now.... Best Regards, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jones Posted 22 February , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2021 Thanks to everyone's input, it looks like I have found Williams 310070's fateful day during the Second Battle of Kemmel, 25th April 1918. Diary Extract of 'WO-95-226-2.pdf' 25 April 1918, 2:30 Enemy opened heavy barrage fire preceding an attack on Kemmel Hill, reported that Kemmel village & Hill taken. No definitive news. During the morning batteries of the Brigade suffered very heavy casualties especially 252 SB who had 12 killed & 20 wounded & 1/1 Welsh HB, 2 killed, 14 wounded. Total casualties for the Brigade 15 killed & 53 wounded. Further casualties Lieut. Kilburn & 1 - OR 188 SB & Lieut. Hutcheon & 2 - OR 249 SB reported missing rom OP Kemmel. L.G. Warren & 10 - ORO 1/1 Welsh HB gassed & admitted to hospital. Kemmel Hill & village known to be in the hands of the enemy. Thanks again for your help with all this. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 22 February , 2021 Share Posted 22 February , 2021 Hi Tom, 2 hours ago, Thomas Jones said: The surviving papers for a few near-ish number 1/1 men is interesting information: 332 Loynes (renumbered to 310075 in 1917) - attested 3.7.1912 etc... William was 326 renumbered to 310070 The renumbering of the TF in 1917 is explained here. What you tend to see when you do 'number sampling' is that where a man served pre 1917, his renumber was often made sequentially from the number block allocated to his unit, based on his old number - i.e. there is often a correlation (allowing for the drop out of some men) between the old and new numbers. What this means for William is that from the service records I saw, he probably joined up circa May/June 1912. At the other end of the bracket formed by 332/310075 Loynes, the nearest I got was 275/310040 Davies who attested on 20.2.1911, and 278/310042 Davies who attested on 2.3.1911. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jones Posted 22 February , 2021 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2021 Wow attested May/June 1912. That's a surprise to find that out, thank you. We've had a rapid response from the British War Graves people, Mick Mcann. Just waiting to see if we can have permission to post it for people to see. Best, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 22 February , 2021 Share Posted 22 February , 2021 (edited) A few typos to correct Tom: " 25 April 1918, 2:30 Enemy opened heavy barrage fire preceding an attack on Kemmel Hill, reported that Kemmel village & Hill taken. No definite news. During the morning batteries of the Brigade suffered very heavy casualties especially 252 SB who had 12 killed & 20 wounded & 1/1 Welsh HB, 2 killed, 14 wounded. Total casualties for the Brigade 15 killed & 53 wounded. Further casualties Lieut. Kilburn & 1 - OR 188 SB & 2Lieut. Hutcheon & 2 - OR 249 SB reported missing from OP Kemmel. 2Lieut. Shepherd 1/1 Welsh HB wounded to hospital & Captain L.C. Warren & 10 - ORs 1/1 Welsh HB gassed & admitted to hospital. Kemmel Hill & village now known to be in the hands of the enemy. " Edited 22 February , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 22 February , 2021 Share Posted 22 February , 2021 (edited) Hi Tom, Prior to the outbreak of the war, as a TF man, unlike a "regular", he wouldn't have had a full time commitment. The TF were sometimes known as 'Saturday night soldiers', as they worked during the week in civilian life, but pitched up once a week at the local drill hall. Additionally there was a summer camp. The service file for 278/310042 Davies shows this: Image sourced from Findmypast I think that the second entry reads as Pembroke Dock, and the third as Okehampton. I guess that William may have been at those too. Regards Chris Edited 22 February , 2021 by clk Spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 22 February , 2021 Share Posted 22 February , 2021 The first entry is Trawsfynydd, the range being just to the south at Bronaber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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