Identifying a photo

[michaela]

First, apologies if this doesn’t come under this category or if indeed it is later than 1918. I have a photo that was amongst my grandfathers collection which I am trying to understand. On the back he has written ‘manoeuvres Albania’ He served in the 1920’s in the 9th/12th Lancers in Palestine. If it does relate to WW1, his brother was in the RFA. To confuse matters, no one on this photo resemble either of them. I did think about applying to the MOD for my grandfathers army papers, but I’ve been told it’s a lengthy process. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.

[Gunner 87]

Hello, this maybe way off the mark but that is lance to the right of the second man from left with two more visible in the back ground. All wear spurs and riding breeches. While their clothing doesn't discount Drivers in the RFA I would say the lances suggest the photo is of the 9/12 Lancers. 

[FROGSMILE]

I concur with Gunner 87 that they are Lancers.  The Lance is of the bamboo type rather than Ash, which alongside the Wolseley helmets chimes with a hot climate theatre of war.

 

The 9th and 12th Lancers were still entirely separate regiments throughout WW1 and did not merge until 1960.  Can you clarify which of the two regiments he served with?

 

There appears to be an arm badge on the right upper sleeve of the man at far left but unfortunately I cannot make out what it is.

Edited 18 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[michaela]

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I concur with Gunner 87 that they are Lancers.  The Lance is of the bamboo type rather than Ash, which alongside the Wolseley helmets chimes with a hot climate theatre of war.

 

The 9th and 12th Lancers were still entirely separate regiments throughout WW1 and did not merge until 1922.  Can you clarify which of the two regiments he served with?

 

There appears to be an arm badge on the right upper sleeve of the man at far left but unfortunately I cannot make out what it is.

Many thanks to you and Gunner 87. After digging out another photo I have of my grandfather, Joseph Rigby, the collar badge I think is the 12th Lancers. This photo was taken by Gilmore of Amesbury, Wiltshire. Presumably collar badges were introduced after WW1? 

[FROGSMILE]

Hello Michaela, yes that is indeed the collar badge of the 12th Prince of Wales’s Own Lancers.  Unlike regular infantry regiment battalions, quite a number of cavalry regiments wore collar badges during WW1 although it was not universal.  After WW1 there was an effort to smarten up service dress uniforms between 1922-24 and as part of that process collar badges were at last authorised for all.  There is some interesting information about the regiment during WW1 at the following link, including a study tracing the service of a particular individual, which might be of interest to you: https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/my-tommys-war-an-eastender-in-the-lancers/

 

NB.  Interestingly for a period at least the 12th Lancers wore a simple Prince of Wales’s feathers insignia on their collars, a badge also worn by other regiments associated with the Prince.  This suggests that your photo dates to the period after 1922, when a more discrete badge, based on the cap insignia was adopted.  Around the same time some regiments switched their lanyards from the left shoulder to the right, in part to avoid conflict with bandoliers and soiling them when marching on foot with rifles sloped.

 

Erratum:  edit should be 21st Lancers - see further posts below.

 

Edited 19 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[michaela]

Thanks Frogsmile for that invaluable information. However, I have another photo of him, the collar badge to me looks different. Unfortunately there is no photographer name on the back of it, I’m thinking it was earlier than the previous photo. It does look like a Lancers badge though. 

[FROGSMILE]

23 hours ago, michaela said:

Thanks Frogsmile for that invaluable information. However, I have another photo of him, the collar badge to me looks different. Unfortunately there is no photographer name on the back of it, I’m thinking it was earlier than the previous photo. It does look like a Lancers badge though. 

It’s the 9th Lancers, with whom the 12th eventually amalgamated in 1960 [edit should be 21st Lancers - see posts below] .  
 

It looks as if he transferred over at some point.  I believe there was a period after WW1 when cavalry regiments were paired in order to emulate the infantry, with one regiment serving overseas, and the other at home and drafts of soldiers moving between the two.

 

He’s also wearing different shoulder titles between the two photos.  He has cloth type when with the 12th Lancers [edit 21st Lancers - see below] and brass metal when with the 9th Lancers.

Edited 19 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[michaela]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s the 9th Lancers, with whom the 12th amalgamated in 1960.  It looks as if he transferred over.  I believe there was a period when cavalry regiments were paired in order to emulate the infantry, with one regiment serving overseas and the other at home and drafts of soldiers moving between the two.

Thank you again. If I was to order his records from the MOD, what regiment would I state? 9th or 12th?

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, michaela said:

Thank you again. If I was to order his records from the MOD, what regiment would I state? 9th or 12th?

Mention both.  His service record is individual to him and would show all the units with which he served.  His full name and date of birth are the most important aspects.  It was not uncommon for regular soldiers to move between regiments even in peacetime, especially when serving overseas.

 

Erratum:  I’ve just realised that I’ve mixed up the 12th Lancers earlier with the 21st Empress of India’s Own Lancers.  He was with the 21st in the initial photo, not the 12th.  The cavalry in general and Lancers in particular were late to settle upon agreed and practical insignia.  The 21st Lancers alone changed three times before finally settling on the design shown, which in shape is similar to the second pattern 12th when viewed from any distance.  In part this was because the lances were easy to entangle and snap off if too exposed.  Eventually a more compact design was found preferable.  Apologies for any confusion.  The 21st Lancers stayed in India as part of its garrison throughout WW1 but it did send several drafts of reinforcements to other Lancer regiments serving in France and Flanders and I suspect that was the case with your grandfather.  Alternatively he might have left the 21st when they were disbanded completely, still in India, in 1921.

 

Edited 18 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

I take it that the lances are stuck into the ground, point first? Was that normal in the field?

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, PhilB said:

I take it that the lances are stuck into the ground, point first? Was that normal in the field?

No Phil, the base of the Lance also had a spike and I think that’s what has been stuck in the ground.

 

Image courtesy of uniformology.com with permission.

Edited 18 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

Thanks, F. It`s just that none of the lances appear to have a head or pennant on!

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Thanks, F. It`s just that none of the lances appear to have a head or pennant on!

Yes it does seem odd, but you can definitely see the spike end in the ground with its distinctive flared rim or flange just above.  I think that they’re perhaps practice lances of some kind without the spear heads fitted, or maybe they’re covered (I can’t make out a cover though).  I agree that it seems unusual.

Edited 18 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[michaela]

38 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Mention both.  His service record is individual to him and would show all the units with which he served.  His full name and date of birth are the most important aspects.  It was not uncommon for regular soldiers to move between regiments even in peacetime, especially when serving overseas.

 

Erratum:  I’ve just realised that I’ve mixed up the 12th Lancers earlier with the 21st Empress of India’s Own Lancers.  He was with the 21st in the initial photo, not the 12th.  The cavalry in general and Lancers in particular were late to settle upon agreed and practical insignia.  The 21st Lancers alone changed three times before finally settling on the design shown, which in shape is similar to the second pattern 12th when viewed from any distance.  In part this was because the lances were easy to entangle and snap off if too exposed.  Eventually a more compact design was found preferable.  Apologies for any confusion.  The 21st Lancers stayed in India as part of its garrison throughout WW1 but it did send several drafts of reinforcements to other Lancer regiments serving in France and Flanders and I suspect that was the case with your grandfather.  Alternatively he might have left the 21st when they were disbanded completely, still in India, in 1921.

 

Thank you. I think you’ve got it well done. I have another photo of him in dress uniform of the 17th/21st Lancers. I just didn’t know where that would fit in. The badge isn’t very clear in this image, I would have to remove it from its frame to get a better shot. Many thanks once again. 

[FROGSMILE]

The following timeline shows the movements of the 9th Queen’s Own Royal Lancers:

 

1912England: Tidworth 

 1914.08 to France and Flanders - 2 Cav Bde, 1  Cav Div, BEF

 1919(England: Tidworth) 

 1919Egypt  

 1924Palestine  

 1926Egypt  

 1927India: Bolarum & Wellington  

 1929Sialkot  

 

For Michaela:  I agree that the appearance of your grandfather in the two photos suggest that he was initially with the 9th Lancers and subsequently the 21st Lancers.  The mention of Albania is intriguing and so far I’ve not yet found a connection with either regiment, but it does seem likely that elements of the 21st might have deployed there for a time after WW1.  More research needed.

Edited 4 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, michaela said:

Thank you. I think you’ve got it well done. I have another photo of him in dress uniform of the 17th/21st Lancers. I just didn’t know where that would fit in. The badge isn’t very clear in this image, I would have to remove it from its frame to get a better shot. Many thanks once again. 

That makes sense.  When the 21st Lancers were stood down in India in 1921 (with government intention to disband), its remaining personnel were in a last minute change sent to the 17th Lancers who due to a change of policy by a new government were retitled as the 17th/21st Lancers.  It seems pretty clear that your grandfather was one of the young soldiers sent to join up with the 17th.  It shows then that he served with the 9th, then the 21st and then the 17th/21st.  The new regiment was formed in a parade at Tidworth on 27th June 1922:

 

 1922.06England: Tidworth 

 1925Aldershot 

 1928Hounslow 

 1930Egypt 

 1932India: Bolarum

Edited 18 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

40 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes it does seem odd, but you can definitely see the spike end in the ground with its distinctive flared rim or flange just above.  I think that they’re perhaps practice lances of some kind without the spear heads fitted, or maybe they’re covered (I can’t make out a cover though).  I agree that it seems unusual.

It does have its carrying loop!

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, PhilB said:

It does have its carrying loop!

Yes I saw that.  Even if practice lances I can’t see how they would have worked unless some kind of plunger device was added to the end.  It’s all a bit of a puzzle.

[Steven Broomfield]

Just throwing this into the mix: others can decide if it's relevant. After the end of the war, the 28th Division (in Salonika) stayed behind and became the British contribution to the international effort to prevent war between Greece and Turkey (the 'Chanaq affair'). Orders of Battle states that initially the 20th Hussars, and latterly the 3rd Hussars, were the divisional cavalry, but I wonder if parts of the 21st Lancers (possibly en route for UK and disbandment) were involved, Albania and Greece being adjacent.

 

As I say, I don't know for sure, but it might explain their location.

 

I also believe that reservists of the 21st formed a composite squadron, which served at XIV Corps Cavalry in France during the war.

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Just throwing this into the mix: others can decide if it's relevant. After the end of the war, the 28th Division (in Salonika) stayed behind and became the British contribution to the international effort to prevent war between Greece and Turkey (the 'Chanaq affair'). Orders of Battle states that initially the 20th Hussars, and latterly the 3rd Hussars, were the divisional cavalry, but I wonder if parts of the 21st Lancers (possibly en route for UK and disbandment) were involved, Albania and Greece being adjacent.

 

As I say, I don't know for sure, but it might explain their location.

 

I also believe that reservists of the 21st formed a composite squadron, which served at XIV Corps Cavalry in France during the war.

 
That’s a good thought Steven, although I’ve really struggled to find any evidence of British troops actually in Albania as suggested by the photograph, although Britain was lobbied for assistance against specifically Serbian aggression over the period 1920-21.  It doesn’t mention anywhere though any kind of military mission, so I’m still none the wiser.  The only person I know who might have some information in among her amazing resources is @Maureene

 

I too read about the Service Company of the 21st formed by reservists but dismissed it from relevance because of the obvious youth of the young men concerned and his complete lack of medal ribbons.

Edited 19 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

If these were practice lances, they would presumably have their leather covered ends on and would not have a pointed rear end? If they were active service lances, one would expect the lance head to be attached as they were not detachable? What am I missing here? 

Pattern 1894 Lance - Arms of the First World War - Royal Armouries collections

[michaela]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That makes sense.  When the 21st Lancers were stood down in India in 1921 (with government intention to disband), its remaining personnel were in a last minute change sent to the 17th Lancers who due to a change of policy by a new government were retitled as the 17th/21st Lancers.  It seems pretty clear that your grandfather was one of the young soldiers sent to join up with the 17th.  It shows then that he served with the 9th, then the 21st and then the 17th/21st.  The new regiment was formed in a parade at Tidworth on 27th June 1922:

 

 1922.06England: Tidworth 

 1925Aldershot 

 1928Hounslow 

 1930Egypt 

 1932India: Bolarum

Thanks again. So if he had the badge of the 21st Lancers, that would have been before 1922,  when they amalgamated with the 17th? If so, as he was born in 1906, he would have only been 16. Wonder then did he lie about his dob? Hope that isn’t going to cause problems when I apply for his records! I have also got an unemployment document for him for 1928, so presumably he had been discharged at that time. 

[Gunner 87]

This image of the 9/12 appears to have the same lance as in the original photograph, without a head, with a carrying loop visible on the right hand weapon.  Image care of the 9/12 Lancers Museum. @FROGSMILE

Edited 18 February , 2021 by Gunner 87

[michaela]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 
That’s a good thought Steven, although I’ve really struggled to find any evidence of British troops actually in Albania as suggested by the photograph, although Britain was lobbied for assistance against specifically Serbian aggression over the period 1920-21.  It doesn’t mention anywhere though any kind of military mission though, so I’m still none the wiser.  The only person I know who might have some information in among her amazing resources is @Maureene

 

I too read about the Service Company of the 21st formed by reservists but dismissed it from relevance because of the obvious youth of the young men concerned and his complete lack of medal ribbons.

Just a thought. As Albania is across the Med from Egypt, would they have stationed there for practice? It may be a stupid theory!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, michaela said:

Thanks again. So if he had the badge of the 21st Lancers, that would have been before 1922,  when they amalgamated with the 17th? If so, as he was born in 1906, he would have only been 16. Wonder then did he lie about his dob? Hope that isn’t going to cause problems when I apply for his records! I have also got an unemployment document for him for 1928, so presumably he had been discharged at that time. 

Yes he definitely has the collar badges of the 21st.  It’s not impossible that he was a Boy Entrant.  Artillery, Cavalry and Infantry all ran schemes where boys could join at the statutory school leaving age, but most were around 14.