Identifying a photo

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Gunner 87 said:

This image of the 9/12 appears to have the same lance as in the original photograph, without a head, with a carrying loop visible on the right hand weapon.  Image care of the 9/12 Lancers Museum. @FROGSMILE

Not this time, I can definitely see the very narrow spear head on the lance at right.  Pennants were not fitted in the field by that stage as their bright colours easily drew MG and artillery fire.

Edited 18 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

53 minutes ago, michaela said:

Just a thought. As Albania is across the Med from Egypt, would they have stationed there for practice? It may be a stupid theory!

It’s not a stupid question but I doubt it.  Albania was in turmoil at the time and with constant and wide ranging problems.  That is why I was looking for any mention of a military mission being sent there, but so far I’ve gained the impression that HMG tried to be helpful whilst also staying at arms length and leaving it to the Italians and Greeks to take the lead.  Unfortunately the Serbs had other ideas and things got out of hand.  It was very fraught, as both Italians and Serbs had been entente allies during the war.

Edited 18 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[michaela]

24 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes he definitely has the collar badges of the 21st.  It’s not impossible that he was a Boy Entrant.  Artillery, Cavalry and Infantry all ran schemes where boys could join at the statutory school leaving age, but most were around 14.

Thanks, that makes sense then. So basically, 9th then 21st then 17th/21st? Just me making sense of it. I am certainly now going to apply for those records. 

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, michaela said:

Thanks, that makes sense then. So basically, 9th then 21st then 17th/21st? Just me making sense of it. I am certainly now going to apply for those records. 

Going by the appearance of your B&W photos then I agree with your suggestion that he looks older in one than the other so yes, 9th, 21st, then 17th/21st seems to be the most likely sequence.

 

I don’t doubt that he was in Albania, it’s just not clear when, why and with whom.  Hopefully his military record will shed some light on that as all overseas duties are usually recorded.

Edited 18 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[MaureenE]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 
... I’ve really struggled to find any evidence of British troops actually in Albania as suggested by the photograph, although Britain was lobbied for assistance against specifically Serbian aggression over the period 1920-21.  It doesn’t mention anywhere though any kind of military mission though, so I’m still none the wiser.  The only person I know who might have some information in among her amazing resources is @Maureene

 

Sorry I can't offer anything specific for this period.

The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Norperforce https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Norperforce

includes some information about the Occupation of Constantinople, including details of the official history, The Occupation of Constantinople 1918–1923 by Brigadier-General J. E. Edmonds. Perhaps there may be something in the official history?

 

For this period  and available online, linked from the Fibiwik page

• "Turkey. The story of Mudania and Chanak" Chapter XII page 100 Tim Harington Looks Back by General Sir Charles Harington 1941 reprint, first published 1940. Archive.org Also including "Appendix I. Extract from my Despatch", (which was never officially published) page 244. 2nd file, images slightly better Archive.org. General Harington commanded the British Forces in Turkey from October 1920 for three years (following on from General Milne).
• "Constantinople" [1922] page 110 A Man at Arms : Memoirs of two World Wars by Francis Law 1983. Archive.org Books to Borrow/Lending Library. 

Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Maureene said:

Sorry I can't offer anything specific for this period.

The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Norperforce https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Norperforce

includes some information about the Occupation of Constantinople, including details of the official history, The Occupation of Constantinople 1918–1923 by Brigadier-General J. E. Edmonds. Perhaps there may be something in the official history?

 

For this period  and available online, linked from the Fibiwik page

• "Turkey. The story of Mudania and Chanak" Chapter XII page 100 Tim Harington Looks Back by General Sir Charles Harington 1941 reprint, first published 1940. Archive.org Also including "Appendix I. Extract from my Despatch", (which was never officially published) page 244. 2nd file, images slightly better Archive.org. General Harington commanded the British Forces in Turkey from October 1920 for three years (following on from General Milne).
• "Constantinople" [1922] page 110 A Man at Arms : Memoirs of two World Wars by Francis Law 1983. Archive.org Books to Borrow/Lending Library. 

Maureen

Thank you Maureen.  I hadn’t considered that the post war troubles in Turkey might have been connected with the seeming presence of some British troops in Albania (although there’s no indication of the scale of any force there, given subject photos).  A key clue will be if the 21st EofIO Lancers were a part of the British ORBAT in Turkey at the time.

Edited 19 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

18 hours ago, PhilB said:

If these were practice lances, they would presumably have their leather covered ends on and would not have a pointed rear end? If they were active service lances, one would expect the lance head to be attached as they were not detachable? What am I missing here? 

Pattern 1894 Lance - Arms of the First World War - Royal Armouries collections

Sorry Phil, I only just spotted this post.  I didn’t know for sure that they were practice lances and was just trying to rationalise what they might have been given that we couldn’t see the sharp spear points.  I agree with you after seeing your photo that they clearly aren’t conventional practice lances.  I’m wondering now if perhaps the original photo gave something of an optical illusion and that the slender, lance heads are there, but somehow obscured by reflected light (as in the other photo of lancers posted by Gunner 87).  It’s difficult to come to any other conclusion, as the idea of lances with no spear points on operations clearly doesn’t make any logical sense.

Edited 19 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

17 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s not a stupid question but I doubt it.  Albania was in turmoil at the time and with constant and wide ranging problems.  That is why I was looking for any mention of a military mission being sent there, but so far I’ve gained the impression that HMG tried to be helpful whilst also staying at arms length and leaving it to the Italians and Greeks to take the lead.  Unfortunately the Serbs had other ideas and things got out of hand.  It was very fraught, as both Italians and Serbs had been entente allies during the war.

 

If only C B Fry had accepted the Crown.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

If only C B Fry had accepted the Crown.

Indeed!  I’m sure that such a fine cricketer would have done a better job of it than Zog, but then again it was undoubtedly a poisoned chalice and one can imagine his reluctance.

[Steven Broomfield]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Indeed!  I’m sure that such a fine cricketer would have done a better job of it than Zog, but then again it was undoubtedly a poisoned chalice and one can imagine his reluctance.

 

Maybe CB should have sent his wife; by all accounts she was a right old tartar. She'd have whipped the Albanians into shape.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

Maybe CB should have sent his wife; by all accounts she was a right old tartar. She'd have whipped the Albanians into shape.

An Anglo-Saxon battle-axe, now there’s a thought!

[williywonker]

Michaela,

This may be a ‘shot in the dark’ but I think your grandfather, Joseph Rigby, was a former miner, born at St Helens, Lancashire on 10.09.96. He enlisted as a Driver in the Royal Field Artillery on 13.04.15 (service number 32402). His service is shown as FRANCE: 04.10.15 to 20.01.16; SALONIKA: 20.01.16 to 15.02.19; INDIA: 23.01.20 to 09.11.22. For his Great War service he was awarded the 1914-15 Star, British War and Victory Medals. He was discharged from 98th Battery RFA, aged 23 years, on the 24.04.19 in accordance with Paragraph 392 (xvia) King’s Regulations, being surplus to military requirements (having suffered impairment since entry into the service). He received the Silver War Badge and illuminated Certificate of Discharge. His medal index card is available online at the National Archives and is free of charge. His 1914-15 Star and British War/Victory medal rolls are available on Ancestry.

 

Following his discharge he enlisted in the Corps of Lancers at Sheffield on 27.10.19 (service number L/19847), and served variously with; the 9th Lancers from 01.11.19; 21st Lancers from 23.01.20; 18th Hussars from 15.10.21; 13th/18th Hussars from 10.11.22; Cavalry Depot from 06.11.24; 13th/18th Hussars again from 03.05.20. He transferred to Section B Army Reserve 26.10.26 and was discharged from the Reserve at Canterbury with the rank of Trooper on 26th October 1931. His conduct was given as ‘very good’. He is then shown as having re-enlisted in the Royal Engineers (Territorial) on 31.03.35.

 

His personal details confirm he married Sylvia Wakefield at Farnham, Aldershot, on the 25.07.23, and the couple had two children born during his army service (names not given here for privacy).

 

As I said earlier, I may be well off the mark, but the similarities in army service suggest a connection.

Mal

Edited 19 February , 2021 by williywonker

[FROGSMILE]

It seems ostensibly a very good theory Mal, but the man in Michaela’s photos is remarkably young looking for a war veteran and it seems unconscionable that he would not be wearing the war medals ribbons that he earned in any of the images.

Edited 19 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Michaela: arm badge on left soldier is probably gilding metal horseshoe, slightly skew, and correctly with points down. I had a go with my advanced software.

[williywonker]

As I mentioned earlier, I may be well off the mark, and I'm sure Michaela will be able to confirm if the biographical details provided relate to her grandfather or not, and that will give us the answer. Either way it has been an entertaining little project on a miserable Friday afternoon.

 

As for my own observations, Rigby’s attestation papers confirm he was just 22 years old when he enlisted in the Corps of Lancers in October 1919 which I believe is entirely consistent with the photographs. As for the medal ribbons, the 1914-15 Star was not announced until publication of Army Order 20 of 1919, (actually 23rd December 1918); the British War Medal not until publication of Army Order 266 on 16th July 1919; and the Victory Medal not until publication of Army Order 301 on 30th August 1919.

 

Assuming the photographs were taken circa 1919/20 then it is conceivable his medal ribbons would not have been issued by this time. Sadly it is not possible to confirm the actual date of issue of Joseph Rigby’s medals since responsibility for their distribution was assigned to the appropriate regimental record offices and not the War Office Medals Branch A.G.10. As such officers i/c records devised their own system of MIC’s to record the dates of issue of medals which explains the absence of issue voucher numbers to other ranks on the MIC’s prepared by A.G.10 (now in the NA) except in the case of late claims, returns, or mistakes which generated correspondence between officers i/c records, recipients, next-of-kin and the Medals Branch.

 

All duplicate medal rolls and MIC’s held by regimental record offices were destroyed by authority of War Office Circular dated 17th November 1934. From this point onwards, all later claims from other ranks would be channeled directly through A.G.10. or its successor A.G.4.

 

Mal

Edited 19 February , 2021 by williywonker

[FROGSMILE]

That all makes sense Mal.  Certainly convinces me that there’s a strong possibility that you’ve cracked this man’s very convoluted career.  It will be interesting to see how it all chimes with Michaela’s knowledge of family lore.

Edited 19 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[michaela]

4 hours ago, williywonker said:

Michaela,

This may be a ‘shot in the dark’ but I think your grandfather, Joseph Rigby, was a former miner, born at St Helens, Lancashire on 10.09.96. He enlisted as a Driver in the Royal Field Artillery on 13.04.15 (service number 32402). His service is shown as FRANCE: 04.10.15 to 20.01.16; SALONIKA: 20.01.16 to 15.02.19; INDIA: 23.01.20 to 09.11.22. For his Great War service he was awarded the 1914-15 Star, British War and Victory Medals. He was discharged from 98th Battery RFA, aged 23 years, on the 24.04.19 in accordance with Paragraph 392 (xvia) King’s Regulations, being surplus to military requirements (having suffered impairment since entry into the service). He received the Silver War Badge and illuminated Certificate of Discharge. His medal index card is available online at the National Archives and is free of charge. His 1914-15 Star and British War/Victory medal rolls are available on Ancestry.

 

Following his discharge he enlisted in the Corps of Lancers at Sheffield on 27.10.19 (service number L/19847), and served variously with; the 9th Lancers from 01.11.19; 21st Lancers from 23.01.20; 18th Hussars from 15.10.21; 13th/18th Hussars from 10.11.22; Cavalry Depot from 06.11.24; 13th/18th Hussars again from 03.05.20. He transferred to Section B Army Reserve 26.10.26 and was discharged from the Reserve at Canterbury with the rank of Trooper on 26th October 1931. His conduct was given as ‘very good’. He is then shown as having re-enlisted in the Royal Engineers (Territorial) on 31.03.35.

 

His personal details confirm he married Sylvia Wakefield at Farnham, Aldershot, on the 25.07.23, and the couple had two children born during his army service (names not given here for privacy).

 

As I said earlier, I may be well off the mark, but the similarities in army service suggest a connection.

Mal

Thank you for all your hard work but sadly that isn’t my grandfather, Rigby is unbelievably common in Lancashire. He was born 1906 in Burnley and married in 1931 in Burnley. I believe, so a story goes, that he enlisted at the age of 15, which would tie in with previous comments of him being in the 21st Lancers before their amalgamation with the 17th Lancers. It will be interesting to see the 1921 census when it becomes available.

Edited 19 February , 2021 by michaela

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, michaela said:

Thank you for all your hard work but sadly that isn’t my grandfather, Rigby is unbelievably common in Lancashire. He was born 1906 in Burnley and married in 1931 in Burnley. I believe, so a story goes, that he enlisted at the age of 15, which would tie in with previous comments of him being in the 21st Lancers before their amalgamation with the 17th Lancers. It will be interesting to see the 1921 census when it becomes available.

Your final colour photo certainly shows that he also served with the 17th/21st Lancers.

 

Edited 19 February , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[michaela]

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Your final colour photo certainly shows that he also served with the 17th/21st Lancers.

 

Many thanks everyone for their hard work on this. I am glad it created lots of interest for you all. It certainly will be exciting when I do receive his records. I now have something to go with. Your help has been greatly appreciated.

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, michaela said:

Many thanks everyone for their hard work on this. I am glad it created lots of interest for you all. It certainly will be exciting when I do receive his records. I now have something to go with. Your help has been greatly appreciated.

It’s an important footnote to bear in mind that the initial order received by the 21st Lancers was to disband, in India, an order that they faithfully carried out.  It was only because there was a change of government back in the UK that there was a kind of reprieve, in the sense that a final contingent of the regiment was ordered to report to the 17th Lancers as a discrete body (rather than be dispersed), which regiment was then to change its title to the 17th/21st.  Very little of the dress of the 21st Lancers was carried over into the new regiment.  
I hope you will let us know in due course what you find out from whatever is left of his service record (some of it will have been weeded out).

[michaela]

Just a thought! On my earlier photo of my grandfather, it is on a ‘carte postale’. This may be a stupid question, but would that mean the photograph was taken in France? There is no photographer stamp, but as i’ve edited the back there is some very feint writing. Unfortunately it seems unreadable, but there appears to be a number, maybe a service number.

[michaela]

On 19/02/2021 at 17:11, FROGSMILE said:

It’s an important footnote to bear in mind that the initial order received by the 21st Lancers was to disband, in India, an order that they faithfully carried out.  It was only because there was a change of government back in the UK that there was a kind of reprieve, in the sense that a final contingent of the regiment was ordered to report to the 17th Lancers as a discrete body (rather than be dispersed), which regiment was then to change its title to the 17th/21st.  Very little of the dress of the 21st Lancers was carried over into the new regiment.  
I hope you will let us know in due course what you find out from whatever is left of his service record (some of it will have been weeded out).

Further to my research, I have since found that my reference to Albania was a mistake. Many apologies! Due to the handwriting and misspelling, I now believe it says ‘Al Addiyah’. I have reason to believe he was in and around Aden at some time. I have also been sent some info from the Royal Lancers museum in Nottingham, which reads ‘Rigby J, trooper, reg no 310545, ‘C’ squadron, transferred to 9th Lancers Palestine Sept 1924’. This was taken from a Gustard Roll, as they don’t hold any soldier records. Many thanks again.

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, michaela said:

Further to my research, I have since found that my reference to Albania was a mistake. Many apologies! Due to the handwriting and misspelling, I now believe it says ‘Al Addiyah’. I have reason to believe he was in and around Aden at some time. I have also been sent some info from the Royal Lancers museum in Nottingham, which reads ‘Rigby J, trooper, reg no 310545, ‘C’ squadron, transferred to 9th Lancers Palestine Sept 1924’. This was taken from a Gustard Roll, as they don’t hold any soldier records. Many thanks again.

Thank you for the update Michaela.  Reviewing the photographic evidence then, along with your new information, it appears as if the sequence of his service was first 21st Lancers, then 17/21st Lancers and finally 9th Lancers in the mid 1920s.

 

The 9th Lancers movements post WW1:

 

 1919(England: Tidworth) 

 1919Egypt  

 1924Palestine  

 1926Egypt  

 1927India: Bolarum & Wellington  

 1929Sialkot  

 1931Scotland: Edinburgh  

 1933England: Tidworth. 2nd Cav Bde

 

I’m relieved you’ve ruled out Albania as I could not find any British military effort there at all, but equally mention of Al Addiyah has so far proved elusive.  There was quite a lot of fighting in and around Aden in 1914-1915, but I’m not sure what went on there in the 1920s.

Edited 4 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[michaela]

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you for the update Michaela.  Reviewing the photographic evidence then, along with your new information, it appears as if the sequence of his service was first 21st Lancers, then 17/21st Lancers and finally 9th Lancers in the mid 1920s.

 

The 9th Lancers movements post WW1:

 

 1919(England: Tidworth) 

 1919Egypt  

 1924Palestine  

 1926Egypt  

 1927India: Bolarum & Wellington  

 1929Sialkot  

 1931Scotland: Edinburgh  

 1933England: Tidworth. 2nd Cav Bde

Many thanks once again. I do find it odd however, the photo of him in the 9th Lancers does look like it’s the earliest one. The other two were taken in Wiltshire, but unfortunately this has no photographers name on. On closer inspection after zooming in on the back, there is very faint writing. I have been told that a uv light may reveal something. It’s all very fascinating! 

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, michaela said:

Many thanks once again. I do find it odd however, the photo of him in the 9th Lancers does look like it’s the earliest one. The other two were taken in Wiltshire, but unfortunately this has no photographers name on. On closer inspection after zooming in on the back, there is very faint writing. I have been told that a uv light may reveal something. It’s all very fascinating! 

Yes it’s very intriguing. The only other thing I could suggest is the possibility that he started with the 9th very early on and then made the moves mentioned above returning to the 9th at the end.  At that time cavalry soldiers joined, e.g. corps of Hussars, or corps of Lancers, corps of Dragoons, etc. which were depot units of the various types of cavalry and then from there they were sent to their regiments in the field. In that way there was greater flexibility and the soldiers could more easily be moved between regiments.  Only his service record could reveal his exact movements.

Edited 4 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE