Thomas Wilson Machine Gun Corps 142651 & Northamptonshire Regiment -Number Unknown

[Bruce Penrose]

 Hello all I hope someone can help me  with my quest . I have been researching my Grandfather Thomas Wilson who was in both the Northamptonshire and machine Gun Corps ( MGC) . The plan was to plot his movements during the War and I originally understood he was in all the large battles from 1914 to 1918 . So far  I have found his MGC Medal Roll which says he has the British and Victory medals MGC/101B89  but nothing mentioned for his time in the Northamptonshire . National archives people ( they are very good and quick responders ) say he probably went to France earliest in 1916  as he was not awarded the Star medal  for 1914-15. So my question is did he join the Northamptonshire in 1916 then immediately get seconded to the MGC.  He was captured in 1918 and held in hospital then repatriated after the war.

I can't locate his service number (can anyone help ??) and National archives at Kew say maybe all other records were destroyed in the  London Blitz in WW2 .

I plan to buy the replica medals but can someone help me understand the Northamptonshire / MGC relationship.

For info  I joined both the Ancestry .com and also the Findmypast for a short while without much luck as they pulled the same info I already had  from National archives at KewWO-372-22-12987.pdf

Thanks in advance Bruce Penrose 

 

[ss002d6252]

Men would often join one battalion and get transferred to the MGC - the MGC is shown on his medal records because it was relevant to the award, if a unit was not relevant it would not be mentioned.

 

Surrounding men were also transferred from the Northamptonshire regiment so it was likely a bulk move of men.

Craig

[Bruce Penrose]

Hello Craig thanks for the clarification. Regards Bruce

[Neil 2242]

32377 was his number in Northants Regt - taken from the medal rolls which list previous units.

 

Have you seen his PoW record? Captured on 6/8/1918 at Albert, unit given as 18 MGC, B Coy

Edited 4 February , 2021 by Neil 2242

[Bruce Penrose]

Hello Neil2242 thanks for the reply . I thought the 32377 was his Northamptonshire regiment number but your saying ts his personal  army number ? is that correct? . If yes what is the 142651 on his MGC card ? is that his regiment or his personal army number in the MGC regiment . 

 Also I have not seen his POW record - how can I see/ get a copy of that . So far I know he went to war in 1916 fought in the Somme ,Cambrai and captured in Albert .

 

Who is B coy 18 MGC ?? 

 

Great info so thank you very much 

 Regards Bruce Penrose

[Neil 2242]

3 hours ago, Bruce Penrose said:

Hello Neil2242 thanks for the reply . I thought the 32377 was his Northamptonshire regiment number but your saying ts his personal  army number ? is that correct? . If yes what is the 142651 on his MGC card ? is that his regiment or his personal army number in the MGC regiment . 

No such thing in this period as personal army number that followed you around. 32377 was his regimental number in the Northants and 142651 was his number in the MGC.

 

3 hours ago, Bruce Penrose said:

Also I have not seen his POW record - how can I see/ get a copy of that . So far I know he went to war in 1916 fought in the Somme ,Cambrai and captured in Albert .

POW records here: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/

I find the search system takes a bit of getting used to, but have a go and come back if you get stuck!

 

3 hours ago, Bruce Penrose said:

Who is B coy 18 MGC ?? 

A good place to start is here:

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/

 

[Bruce Penrose]

Hello Neil2242 eureka I found the POW list which includes my Grandad . PA37391 , It even quotes my Grandmas name  Ellen. I assume  the page an extract from a captured  German military file  after the war ?.  Do you have any suggestions on how I can trace the battle at Albert on the 6/8/18 to understand how he was captured ?. Also where would you recommend I look  to  tracing his units movements and battles from  Cambrai 1916 to Albert 6/8/18.

 Thanks again  Bruce 

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, Bruce Penrose said:

Hello Neil2242 eureka I found the POW list which includes my Grandad . PA37391 , It even quotes my Grandmas name  Ellen. I assume  the page an extract from a captured  German military file  after the war ?.  Do you have any suggestions on how I can trace the battle at Albert on the 6/8/18 to understand how he was captured ?. Also where would you recommend I look  to  tracing his units movements and battles from  Cambrai 1916 to Albert 6/8/18.

 Thanks again  Bruce 

 

The Red Cross acted as a neutral intermediary of PoW information during the war - those files are from their registry. People are often surprised how much information still flowed between Germany and the UK during the war.

 

Craig

[Bruce Penrose]

27 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

 

The Red Cross acted as a neutral intermediary of PoW information during the war - those files are from their registry. People are often surprised how much information still flowed between Germany and the UK during the war.

 

Craig

Hello Craig , much appreciated. I'll now spend time trying to trace his movements with the MGC  while he was in France .  As a 7 year old I  often sat by his fire side chair and he would tell me stories of the war  how he would spray left to right with his machine gun making the sound 'pop pop pop pop pop' . He never told of the dark times but i was also told while in hospital the German nurses would check if he was alive on their rounds by poking a finger in the wound- .! . Fact or fiction I will never know.

 

 Thank you again for all your help .

 Best Regards Bruce 

[Gunner 87]

Hi Bruce, the War Diary for 18th Battalion MGC is available for download at the NA on this link https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352973 This covers the period Thomas was taken POW. I have just researched the same for a relative in the MGC and found it a fascinating read, covering in detail each Company's actions the day he was taken prisoner.

 

 

 

 

Edited 5 February , 2021 by Gunner 87

[Gunner 87]

Bruce, do you have this? It appears to record contact with his family.

 

 

Edited 5 February , 2021 by Gunner 87

[Neil 2242]

12 hours ago, Bruce Penrose said:

Hello Neil2242 eureka I found the POW list which includes my Grandad . PA37391 , It even quotes my Grandmas name  Ellen.

Yep, that's the one!

And if you scroll up two pages to page PA37389 it looks like he was held in Limburg PoW camp.

[kenf48]

Forum Pal Stebie is the Northamptonshire Regiment expert (I was only born there!) but near number sampling puts his mobilisation to on or around 16 February 1917.  He may well have attested the previous year  under the continuation of the Group Scheme but secured occupational or other exemption from military service until 1917.  Twelve weeks training so joined BEF say April 1917.

 

We don’t know his Northamptonshire Battalion at present, Stebie may be able to help.

 

The 18th Battalion MGC was formed in the same Division as the 6th(Service) Bn Northamptonshire Regiment.  It may be a coincidence but may also account for the group of Northamptonshire men, as identified by Craig transferred to the MGC, with others, to the 18th Battalion in France on or around the 19 March 1918.  It was quite common for men from the Brigade to be attached to the MG Company and then subsequently posted into the Corps.  From the war diary any such attachment would seem to predate the formation of the 18th Battalion on the 19th February 1918.

 

 

 

 

[GregO]

The diary suggests a German attack on a strong post. If you download the diary (Pt2) you should find the relevant details on p8 and p13 of the pdf. He was probably on the gun in Cloncurry Trench closest to the Bray Corbie Rd marked (Pt2 p8 of diary).

[Bruce Penrose]

On 05/02/2021 at 12:36, Gunner 87 said:

Bruce, do you have this? It appears to record contact with his family.

 

 

Hi Gunner87 thanks for your message - Yes a previous chap on this forum pointed me to this link . From this I got to the PA37391 the red cross page  BUT I dont know what "B" Coy means or who he is - Can you advise ??. Thanks Bruce

[Bruce Penrose]

13 hours ago, GregO said:

The diary suggests a German attack on a strong post. If you download the diary (Pt2) you should find the relevant details on p8 and p13 of the pdf. He was probably on the gun in Cloncurry Trench closest to the Bray Corbie Rd marked (Pt2 p8 of diary).

Hi Greg0 this is amazing info  So does the green circle give is approx position with his Gun ? 

[Woodnbits]

Coy is the abbreviation for company so B Company 18th Battalion is my interpretation.

 

Tim

 

[Bruce Penrose]

On 06/02/2021 at 00:51, kenf48 said:

Forum Pal Stebie is the Northamptonshire Regiment expert (I was only born there!) but near number sampling puts his mobilisation to on or around 16 February 1917.  He may well have attested the previous year  under the continuation of the Group Scheme but secured occupational or other exemption from military service until 1917.  Twelve weeks training so joined BEF say April 1917.

 

We don’t know his Northamptonshire Battalion at present, Stebie may be able to help.

 

The 18th Battalion MGC was formed in the same Division as the 6th(Service) Bn Northamptonshire Regiment.  It may be a coincidence but may also account for the group of Northamptonshire men, as identified by Craig transferred to the MGC, with others, to the 18th Battalion in France on or around the 19 March 1918.  It was quite common for men from the Brigade to be attached to the MG Company and then subsequently posted into the Corps.  From the war diary any such attachment would seem to predate the formation of the 18th Battalion on the 19th February 1918.

 

 

 

 

Hello Kentf48  I have the Thomas Wilson Medal Roll from the  UK National Archives at Kew  and they think he went to war in 1916 purely as this  suggests he was awarded the British medal and the Victory medal - see attached file .

 I'm still confused about the Northamptonshire Regiment being listed then others say he was moved en block to the MGC  - I thought this was in 1916 but your info suggests it was 1918 . All great info and another chap has given me a link to an MGC book which I will down load . I assume he went from Watford to London then on to Calais  then up to the front .? Is that the way it might have happened ?? Thanks again Bruce

[Bruce Penrose]

2 minutes ago, Woodnbits said:

Coy is the abbreviation for company so B Company 18th Battalion is my interpretation.

 

Tim

 

Hi Tim this is great stuff . From sitting by the fire side with my Grandad when I was about 7  and him saying pop pop pop pop  - . Just shows I have no idea what he went through but I will preserve it all for my family . I would not be here  if it were not for him !!

 Thanks again Tim 

[Gunner 87]

25 minutes ago, Bruce Penrose said:

Hi Gunner87 thanks for your message - Yes a previous chap on this forum pointed me to this link . From this I got to the PA37391 the red cross page  BUT I dont know what "B" Coy means or who he is - Can you advise ??. Thanks Bruce

 

Hi Bruce, yes sorry, I should have explained what 'Coy' meant. This link to the LLT makes for a quick and interesting read on the MGC. The last line covering casualties is very telling. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/ Do you have a picture of Thomas out of interest? 

Edited 7 February , 2021 by Gunner 87

[Bruce Penrose]

11 minutes ago, Bruce Penrose said:

Hello Kentf48  I have the Thomas Wilson Medal Roll from the  UK National Archives at Kew  and they think he went to war in 1916 purely as this  suggests he was awarded the British medal and the Victory medal - see attached file .

 I'm still confused about the Northamptonshire Regiment being listed then others say he was moved en block to the MGC  - I thought this was in 1916 but your info suggests it was 1918 . All great info and another chap has given me a link to an MGC book which I will down load . I assume he went from Watford to London then on to Calais  then up to the front .? Is that the way it might have happened ?? Thanks again Bruce

WO-372-22-12987.pdf

[Bruce Penrose]

4 minutes ago, Gunner 87 said:

 

Hi Bruce, yes sorry, I should have explained what 'Coy' meant. This link to the LLT makes for a quick and interesting read on the MGC. The last line covering casualties is very telling. http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/

Hi Gunner  87 great info . Yes I found that link . But I see there are 4 books from amazon on the last page . Do you or anyone else know / suggest which is the best book that might relate to my Grandads actions while he was in the MGC . Thanks again  Regards Bruce

[Bruce Penrose]

14 hours ago, GregO said:

The diary suggests a German attack on a strong post. If you download the diary (Pt2) you should find the relevant details on p8 and p13 of the pdf. He was probably on the gun in Cloncurry Trench closest to the Bray Corbie Rd marked (Pt2 p8 of diary).

Hello Greg0 just readthe first part of the diary  which for the 6th says one man missing from 1 gun . Thomas Wilson had a significant shrapnel wound in his shoulder so I wounder if this was him captured from this gun team ?? as you suggest . 

Just now, Bruce Penrose said:

Hello Greg0 just read the first part of the diary  which for the 6th says one man missing from 1 gun . Thomas Wilson had a significant shrapnel wound in his shoulder so I wounder if this was him captured from this gun team ?? as you suggest . 

Where can I down load the dairy page ? 

 Thanks again for all your help  Regards Bruce

[Gunner 87]

1 minute ago, Bruce Penrose said:

Hi Gunner  87 great info . Yes I found that link . But I see there are 4 books from amazon on the last page . Do you or anyone else know / suggest which is the best book that might relate to my Grandads actions while he was in the MGC . Thanks again  Regards Bruce

 In my experience, which is far less than other members I hasten to add, the War Diary of the 18th MGC of which I posted the link earlier in the thread, will be your best source for specifics around Thomas's unit actions and movements. Did you manage to download it? If not I am very happy to do so and send it over by email. It maybe quite large.

Just now, Gunner 87 said:

 In my experience, which is far less than other members I hasten to add, the War Diary of the 18th MGC of which I posted the link earlier in the thread, will be your best source for specifics around Thomas's unit actions and movements. Did you manage to download it? If not I am very happy to do so and send it over by email. It maybe quite large.

 

Bruce, its at the NA. Would you like me to send it over to you?

[Bruce Penrose]

46 minutes ago, Woodnbits said:

Coy is the abbreviation for company so B Company 18th Battalion is my interpretation.

 

Tim

 

Hello Tim great info thanks Bruce