Thomas Wilson Machine Gun Corps 142651 & Northamptonshire Regiment -Number Unknown

[Bruce Penrose]

29 minutes ago, Bruce Penrose said:

Hi Gunner  87 great info . Yes I found that link . But I see there are 4 books from amazon on the last page . Do you or anyone else know / suggest which is the best book that might relate to my Grandads actions while he was in the MGC . Thanks again  Regards Bruce

Found some more pictures and Info.

 The attached pictures show Grandad  in uniform  , and his ( I think bible ut this is dated 1917 on the outside suggesting he did not go to war till 1917 ?  The picture of 3 people is Grandad , Grandma and Uncle Tom . Uncle was captured in WW2 by the Japanese when he was shipped to Singapore in 1941 as part of a motor bomb crew . He was in Changi jail and on the infamous Burma Railway . 

[kenf48]

5 hours ago, Bruce Penrose said:

I have the Thomas Wilson Medal Roll from the  UK National Archives at Kew  and they think he went to war in 1916 purely as this  suggests he was awarded the British medal and the Victory medal - see attached file .

 

To qualify for the 14-15 Star Medal a soldier had to enter a theatre of war before the cut off date which was 31st December 1915.  Broadly speaking the medal recognised the wearer was a  volunteer rather than a conscript.  The document attached is his Medal Index Card to the Medal Rolls which show his Northamptonshire Number.

All it means if a man was awarded a 'pair', i.e. the Victory Medal and British War Medal he did not enter a theatre of war until after the 1st January 1916, and before the cut off date for those medals which was the Armistice.

 

I believe what you originally posted is  an extract from the National Roll which shows he 'joined' in February 1916.  'Joined' could mean anything from attestation, to conscription to mobilisation.  People were invited to submit details for entries in the Roll so there may be some over reporting, as for example when submitting a cv for a job application.

In this context it probably means he was attested. 

 

You have not posted his age or dob but he could not go on active service until aged nineteen, neither have you said where he lived which could also be helpful, and whether or not he was single or married.  These details can help to build a picture as to his service.

 

5 hours ago, Bruce Penrose said:

 I'm still confused about the Northamptonshire Regiment being listed then others say he was moved en block to the MGC  - I thought this was in 1916 but your info suggests it was 1918 . All great info and another chap has given me a link to an MGC book which I will down load . I assume he went from Watford to London then on to Calais  then up to the front .? Is that the way it might have happened ??

 

If he was conscripted in February 1916 he was in one of the first Groups (Group Scheme) or Class (Conscripts) to be called up. This was dependent on year of birth.  On the other hand if he enlisted under the extended Group Scheme he would be placed in the Army  'B' Reserve and sent home and may have secured an exemption until 1917.

We simply don't know on the information given.  Later in 1916 the Training Reserve was formed and if posted to the TR given a number prefixed TR/?/******. 

Without a service record these details are lost.

 

In February 1917, he was called up for service, or mobilised and no earlier than, but around the 16th February 1917 was  posted to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment and allocated the number 32377.  He would retain this number whilst serving in the  Northamptonshire Regiment.  He would remain with the 3rd Battalion to await a posting to a theatre of war, again he tells us (National Roll) he went to France 'early in 1917'.  Twelve weeks basic training takes us to an earliest date at the end of April.

 

The 3rd Battalion were on coastal defence on the Isle of Sheppey.  His draft would have taken a train to Folkestone and then boat to Boulogne and on to the Base Depot, probably Etaples, (ihaven't time to check) where they would receive a couple more weeks training and be 'toughened up' in the hated bull ring (every depot had  one) before the relief of being posted to a front line unit in the field.

 

We cannot say for certain which Battalion he was posted to but if we look at near numbers we can see the following:-

We know from the medal roll Pte Wilson was not in the group who were posted to the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, but this does at least give a possible earliest  and approximate date for his initial entry into France and a theatre of war.  It was not unusual for drafts to be split up when they arrived at the Base Depot in France. However this was a relatively large draft from the Northamptonshire to the RWF, and the men posted were numbered in the range 32302 - 32403, so we can probably say he was not included in that draft.

 

The short answer is we don't know beyond 'early in 1917' when he first went to France.

 

By the same token because we can't say when he went to France neither can we be certain which Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment he first joined.  It was probably the 6th or 7th and although the fact he ended up in the 18th Bn MGC points to the 6th, the 6th was not at Cambrai and his National Roll entry states that he fought 'at Cambrai'.

The 7th did fight at Cambrai with the 24th Division.

 

The war diary for the 7th shows two drafts arrived one on the 4th May 1917, 32 men and the other on the 8th May, 49 men. 

A possibility and no higher than that he was in one of those drafts if he was in the 32**** series that disembarked on the 30th April.

I have found in the Medal Roll 32356 Hare and 32358 East who was posted to, and remained with, the 7th until demobilised, unfortunately neither record has survived.

Incidentally Pte. Wilson's medals would be named to the Northamptonshire Regiment.

 

In an effort to find out if the ten men from the Northamptonshire Regiment who were posted to the MGC at the same time came from the same battalion, which would indicate a prior attachment I looked to see if there was a relationship but couldn't find one.

 

The ten were:-

 

40474 Roberts
142649

 

47776 Sparks
142650
 

32377 Wilson
142651
 

47031 Abell
142652

 

47010 Gemell
142653

 

48069 Littlechild
142654

 

30739 Mallows
142655

 

47765 Mardle
142656
 

9651 Norman
142657

 

46984 Sims
142658

 

I believe, for some reason, perhaps sickness, these men were at the Base Depot early in 1918 and redeployed to to the MGC on the 19th/23rd March (142680 was posted to 18 Bn on the 19th March at the Base Depot (Etaples) having been on Base Details a couple of months prior due to a hernia). 142649 Roberts (18th Bn) died of wounds on the 4th April 1918 so they were in the line with the 18th Battalion by then.

 

Your latest photograph is not a MGC cap badge and is probably the Northamptonshire, though blurred is the right shape, indicating the photograph was taken shortly before he went overseas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Penrose]

2 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

To qualify for the 14-15 Star Medal a soldier had to enter a theatre of war before the cut off date which was 31st December 1915.  Broadly speaking the medal recognised the wearer was a  volunteer rather than a conscript.  The document attached is his Medal Index Card to the Medal Rolls which show his Northamptonshire Number.

All it means if a man was awarded a 'pair', i.e. the Victory Medal and British War Medal he did not enter a theatre of war until after the 1st January 1916, and before the cut off date for those medals which was the Armistice.

 

I believe what you originally posted is  an extract from the National Roll which shows he 'joined' in February 1916.  'Joined' could mean anything from attestation, to conscription to mobilisation.  People were invited to submit details for entries in the Roll so there may be some over reporting, as for example when submitting a cv for a job application.

In this context it probably means he was attested. 

 

You have not posted his age or dob but he could not go on active service until aged nineteen, neither have you said where he lived which could also be helpful, and whether or not he was single or married.  These details can help to build a picture as to his service.

 

 

If he was conscripted in February 1916 he was in one of the first Groups (Group Scheme) or Class (Conscripts) to be called up. This was dependent on year of birth.  On the other hand if he enlisted under the extended Group Scheme he would be placed in the Army  'B' Reserve and sent home and may have secured an exemption until 1917.

We simply don't know on the information given.  Later in 1916 the Training Reserve was formed and if posted to the TR given a number prefixed TR/?/******. 

Without a service record these details are lost.

 

In February 1917, he was called up for service, or mobilised and no earlier than, but around the 16th February 1917 was  posted to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment and allocated the number 32377.  He would retain this number whilst serving in the  Northamptonshire Regiment.  He would remain with the 3rd Battalion to await a posting to a theatre of war, again he tells us (National Roll) he went to France 'early in 1917'.  Twelve weeks basic training takes us to an earliest date at the end of April.

 

The 3rd Battalion were on coastal defence on the Isle of Sheppey.  His draft would have taken a train to Folkestone and then boat to Boulogne and on to the Base Depot, probably Etaples, (ihaven't time to check) where they would receive a couple more weeks training and be 'toughened up' in the hated bull ring (every depot had  one) before the relief of being posted to a front line unit in the field.

 

We cannot say for certain which Battalion he was posted to but if we look at near numbers we can see the following:-

We know from the medal roll Pte Wilson was not in the group who were posted to the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, but this does at least give a possible earliest  and approximate date for his initial entry into France and a theatre of war.  It was not unusual for drafts to be split up when they arrived at the Base Depot in France. However this was a relatively large draft from the Northamptonshire to the RWF, and the men posted were numbered in the range 32302 - 32403, so we can probably say he was not included in that draft.

 

The short answer is we don't know beyond 'early in 1917' when he first went to France.

 

By the same token because we can't say when he went to France neither can we be certain which Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment he first joined.  It was probably the 6th or 7th and although the fact he ended up in the 18th Bn MGC points to the 6th, the 6th was not at Cambrai and his National Roll entry states that he fought 'at Cambrai'.

The 7th did fight at Cambrai with the 24th Division.

 

The war diary for the 7th shows two drafts arrived one on the 4th May 1917, 32 men and the other on the 8th May, 49 men. 

A possibility and no higher than that he was in one of those drafts if he was in the 32**** series that disembarked on the 30th April.

I have found in the Medal Roll 32356 Hare and 32358 East who was posted to, and remained with, the 7th until demobilised, unfortunately neither record has survived.

Incidentally Pte. Wilson's medals would be named to the Northamptonshire Regiment.

 

In an effort to find out if the ten men from the Northamptonshire Regiment who were posted to the MGC at the same time came from the same battalion, which would indicate a prior attachment I looked to see if there was a relationship but couldn't find one.

 

The ten were:-

 

40474 Roberts
142649

 

47776 Sparks
142650
 

32377 Wilson
142651
 

47031 Abell
142652

 

47010 Gemell
142653

 

48069 Littlechild
142654

 

30739 Mallows
142655

 

47765 Mardle
142656
 

9651 Norman
142657

 

46984 Sims
142658

 

I believe, for some reason, perhaps sickness, these men were at the Base Depot early in 1918 and redeployed to to the MGC on the 19th/23rd March (142680 was posted to 18 Bn on the 19th March at the Base Depot (Etaples) having been on Base Details a couple of months prior due to a hernia). 142649 Roberts (18th Bn) died of wounds on the 4th April 1918 so they were in the line with the 18th Battalion by then.

 

Your latest photograph is not a MGC cap badge and is probably the Northamptonshire, though blurred is the right shape, indicating the photograph was taken shortly before he went overseas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Kenf48 your a star, what a lot of information . Grandad was born  18.09.1889 in Watford Hertfordshire . He was married  before the war and had children - his son Tom who i referenced earlier as captured by the Japanese in WW2. Grandad died  2.01.1978. I see him in your list of ten people-  32377 Wilson142651.   

 

Thanks again for all your help . Best Regards Bruce  

[GregO]

Hi Bruce,

It is exactly where his gun was as these positions have been reckoned. Knowing exactly where you are is important because by this time the guns are laid on map targets rather than direct sight. You have to know where you are to hit something you can't see. I don't think the diary could be describing any other gun as it clearly states along the Bray-Corbie Rd.

Will know a lot more in a year's time.

 

Cheers

Greg